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"What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

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Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#91

Post by gwern »

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #57
gwern wrote: post #40

If I may, David Foster Wallace (as so often) said it better: > “But it’s better for us not to know the kinds of sacrifices the professional-grade athlete has made to get so very good at one particular thing…the actual facts of the sacrifices repel us when we see them: basketball geniuses who cannot read, sprinters who dope themselves, defensive tackles who shoot up with bovine hormones until they collapse or explode.…

I think the DFW was a little melodramatic here. I don't think the commitment to true excellence necessarily detracts from other possible commitments in the long run. E.g. DFW was a writer of singular ability, and he was, at various points in his life, dedicated to tennis, philosophy, and mathematics. More to the point, the time spent being great at CS doesn't seem to have limited this guy's future ability to do thing…

> I don't think the commitment to true excellence necessarily detracts from other possible commitments in the long run. E.g. DFW was a writer of singular ability, and he was, at various points in his life, dedicated to tennis, philosophy, and mathematics.

DFW is a good example, actually. As far as I know from reading his nonfiction, in tennis he never got beyond 'very promising youth' but dropped out at some point when he realized he would never be truly great; in philosophy, he published an interesting thesis which was well-regarded - but that's not a career in philosophy, much less world-class philosophizing, and then he dropped out of that; and I'm not sure what, if anything, original he ever did in mathematics. What he is remembered for is being a writer (with interest in tennis, philosophy, and math), and being a writer is what he spent most of his short life doing.

Fact is, we don't expect world-class people to have many real interests or sidelines besides dabbling; look at the recent post on Heddy Lamar. 'My god, an actress with a brain for non-acting things, who invented frequency-hopping?' You could hear brain going 'foom' in the distance.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#92

Post by freehunter »

potatolicious wrote: post #12
cdk wrote: post #5

Thanks for the great article. Counter Strike was the game that really got me interested in programming. I got introduced to it in early 2000 and was blown away that this game was made by hobbyists who created a mod (expansion package) for Half Life which in itself was revolutionary at the time. Eventually Valve acquired Counter Strike and the rest is history. I still think fondly of the many hours spent on de_dust an…

Counter-Strike had a similar effect on me. I'd be coding since long before CS, but most were small, simple hacks. Seeing the success of Counter-Strike, and the mod-mania of that era, got me interested in modding, where I was first exposed to the complexities (and math!) that "real" software entailed. From there I went on to write some standalone, small games, then went deeper down the C++ rabbit hole which helped me…

I got started at 15 working with teams to make CS hacks harder to detect. I now work in netsec doing packet analysis to identify new malware via network signatures. It's funny how script kiddies, given proper motivation, can grow into professionals doing real work. How many thousands (millions?) of our fellow IT workers can trace the direct roots of their profession to video games they played as kids?

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#94

Post by kejadlen »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #71
kejadlen wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you, but I don't choose my hobbies based on how likely they are to get me laid. And if people don't respect my hobbies, that's their problem, not mine. It's also a good indication of what kind of person they are. Although as an aside, you do forget one significant downside to playing sports - injuries. This is especially the case if you play at all competitively. Also, are sports really a valid "lo…

No, although as a teenager if you had suggested a hobby which I hated but promised that it would result in ladies throwing themselves at me I probably would have considered it :) My point was more that being masterful at a sport (e.g playing professional or semi-pro football) or being a successful musician playing large gigs to cheering fans will get you more social status than being a counterstrike champion (althoug…

Can't argue with that one (choosing hobbies as a teenager), although I have to admit that I became much more satisfied with my hobbies once I stopped caring about them from the point of view of other people.

Personally, I think putting time into music and sports are about as useful/useless as putting time into video games. For the most part, adults aren't going to be able to sink much time into their hobbies (certainly not enough to become world class) - most of my friends who did sink time into learning to shred on a guitar (and the like) don't really use those skills now. I spend most of my personal time playing sports, but other than the side effect of being rather fit, I don't think they are intrinsically any more fulfilling than spending a similar amount of time becoming just as good at competitive gaming.

Re: SC -> SC2 - not really a great analogy, considering how well professional SC players have adapted to SC2. They might complain about it, but there's actually a pretty high correlation between being good at SC and transferring that skill to SC2. (Not to mention that the few SC players that have switched to SC2 so far haven't been top-tier. I can't imagine how well the top-tier SC players would do at SC2 in comparison.) I don't think it's much different from pro athletes dealing with rules changes; NFL players might vociferously complain about it, but in the end, they're the best at what they do for a reason.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#95

Post by kejadlen »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #74
kejadlen wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people who trot out that "10,000 hours" figure don't remember the second part - it's 10,000 hours of _meaningful practice_. Being the best at something, including video games, isn't something that you just stumble into. Would you say that about someone who enjoys sports as a hobby? You say "may as well keep playing and become the best" as if video games somehow involve less skill or practice to become the best a…

I think it is mostly that video games are generally designed around quick gratification compared to most other activities, they are not usually designed to be your primary hobby (at least 1 game on it's own is not). Throw a relative newbie into a first person shooter game and they will probably score their first kill in a matter of minutes, it just doesn't ask any long term commitment from you. I imagine very few peo…

Single-player games may be built around that, but multiplayer games generally aren't. Have you ever seen a newbie get thrown into a multiplayer FPS game? Unless everyone else is at a similar skill level, the newbie often just gets destroyed. Heck, the difference between my friends and I at Halo isn't even that great, and I usually only wind up with a handful of kills at best! (It's arguable that I might just really suck at Halo, but it's not like my friends are that great either.)

That being said, I still fail to see how this is any different from playing sports, or any other hobby. You try something new, discover you like it, do it some more, get decent at it, and then decide to take it to the next level. I've never been that addicted to video games, but one could easily argue that my current hobbies have (obviously) been more addictive for me, since I've stuck with them to such an extent.

It is true that video games do age quickly, but it's not the case that your skills suddenly become obsolete. When the electric guitar came out, did that suddenly render classic guitar skills useless? It's the same with video games - many of the skills transfer over within the same game archetype. It's why you see the same people winning at different 2D fighting games over the years. Despite playing a completely new game, the bulk of your skills are still intact. Sure, the specialization is gone, but that's part of the appeal.

Yes, but how many of those CS players actually invested time into _meaningful practice_ at CS? No offense, but just being in a clan is kind of like being a club sports player. Pretty damn good compared to the average player, but not the same at all as putting in the work to become world class.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#96

Post by onemoreact »

cynest wrote: post #89
FrojoS wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And on top of that, CS was only popular for a brief period of time. Had it already been popular when he was a kid, like Tennis, then he would have probably been practicing at a very young age to become world class. And if CS was still as popular, he might be still playing it.

> And if CS was still as popular, he might be still playing it. As of this posting there are ~52000 players currently playing CS according to Steam, with a peak in the past 24 hours at ~65000. For CS:S, the numbers are 38000 and 50000 respectively.

That's not all that popular for an online game.

There are probably 20-100 times as many people playing Warcraft over time same time frame. It's about at the level of EVE online which is a vary nitch MMO. Distributed Systems Architect Jacky Mallett explained that “we hit a new peak of online usage, 63,170 users online concurrently” on January 23 http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/eve-online-has-over-360000...

PS: Considering the player base and ongoing subscription costs I would not be surprised if wow peak's at 2,000,000 - 3,000,000 players at the same time.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#97

Post by FrojoS »

jergason wrote: post #90
FrojoS wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And on top of that, CS was only popular for a brief period of time. Had it already been popular when he was a kid, like Tennis, then he would have probably been practicing at a very young age to become world class. And if CS was still as popular, he might be still playing it.

CS is still the most popular game on Steam[1] if you count both Source and 1.6, and has been for years. It is still played professionally[2], with a major tournament happening right now[3]. [1]: http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Strike#Legacy [3]: http://dreamhack.binarybeast.com/#CS16

Thanks. Though, as far as I understand, Source is different enough that the author would loos most of his edge.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#98

Post by afterburner »

onemoreact wrote: post #96
cynest wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if CS was still as popular, he might be still playing it. As of this posting there are ~52000 players currently playing CS according to Steam, with a peak in the past 24 hours at ~65000. For CS:S, the numbers are 38000 and 50000 respectively.

That's not all that popular for an online game. There are probably 20-100 times as many people playing Warcraft over time same time frame. It's about at the level of EVE online which is a vary nitch MMO. Distributed Systems Architect Jacky Mallett explained that “we hit a new peak of online usage, 63,170 users online concurrently” on January 23 http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/eve-online-has-over-360000... PS: Consi…

Comparing MMO online presence to FPSs is comparing apples and oranges. MMOs are designed to keep you playing for hours upon hours; FPSs, though some do the same, are structured in 5-15 min individual games. And all that time is spent playing, unlike MMOs where boring downtime spent chatting can dominate the experience at the upper end and in some games (like EVE).

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#99

Post by cgag »

freehunter wrote: post #92
potatolicious wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-Strike had a similar effect on me. I'd be coding since long before CS, but most were small, simple hacks. Seeing the success of Counter-Strike, and the mod-mania of that era, got me interested in modding, where I was first exposed to the complexities (and math!) that "real" software entailed. From there I went on to write some standalone, small games, then went deeper down the C++ rabbit hole which helped me…

I got started at 15 working with teams to make CS hacks harder to detect. I now work in netsec doing packet analysis to identify new malware via network signatures. It's funny how script kiddies, given proper motivation, can grow into professionals doing real work. How many thousands (millions?) of our fellow IT workers can trace the direct roots of their profession to video games they played as kids?

Writing scripts and bots to cheat at runescape in middle school for me.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#100

Post by shadytrees »

jodrellblank wrote: post #77
gwern wrote: post #40

If I may, David Foster Wallace (as so often) said it better: > “But it’s better for us not to know the kinds of sacrifices the professional-grade athlete has made to get so very good at one particular thing…the actual facts of the sacrifices repel us when we see them: basketball geniuses who cannot read, sprinters who dope themselves, defensive tackles who shoot up with bovine hormones until they collapse or explode.…

He will say he is happy and mean it. Wish him well." What's that supposed to mean? He will say he is happy and mean it, but really he isn't? DFW committed suicide, I don't hold him as a great authority on what kinds of happiness are 'valid'.

DFW references this argument in his fiction, so I'll try to do it justice: I respectfully disagree. Depression does not stem from "I don't what happiness is". A depressed person is aware of happiness, of the fact that he or she right now should be happy because everybody else at the dinner table is laughing and having a great time, of the fact that he or she knows how to pretend happy and a great time while at the same time hating the pretension. Being depressed is constantly looking onto happiness but being denied access; being depressed is being depressed about the fact that you don't have access, which in turn makes you more depressed.

I don't think the way DFW meant to end that sentence is "but he really isn't". That paragraph, that entire piece really, is about the audience's predatory relationship with athletes. That last paragraph is addressed at people who watch, not people who participate. Michael Joyce is happy; we should just be wary of the kind of happiness.

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