"What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm • Hacker News Board

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#71

Post by jiggy2011 » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 9:45 AM UTC

kejadlen wrote: post #62

jiggy2011 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not against playing games for short term happiness or pleasure. It just seems like a poor long term hobby , especially to focus so much on one game. I don't think CS is the worst offender here though, It's worse when WOW gets patched and people complain about the patch making their character worse because they invested so much time in that character which can be so arbitrarily rendered worthless. I think being go…

I don't know about you, but I don't choose my hobbies based on how likely they are to get me laid. And if people don't respect my hobbies, that's their problem, not mine. It's also a good indication of what kind of person they are. Although as an aside, you do forget one significant downside to playing sports - injuries. This is especially the case if you play at all competitively. Also, are sports really a valid "lo…

No, although as a teenager if you had suggested a hobby which I hated but promised that it would result in ladies throwing themselves at me I probably would have considered it :)

My point was more that being masterful at a sport (e.g playing professional or semi-pro football) or being a successful musician playing large gigs to cheering fans will get you more social status than being a counterstrike champion (although maybe korea is a counter example here).

I'm not suggesting that you should choose your hobbies based on this though! I try to choose hobbies based on a deeper sense of fulfillment which may be creative , exhilarating or just make me physically fitter. Whilst I still enjoy playing video games I never got any of these feelings of "real" achievement from it in the same way I would from writing a good program or running a marathon for example, so they are now in the "fun" category for me now rather than a serious hobby.

Of course there is a social aspect to many hobbies too and this is probably one of the things I enjoyed most about gaming (especially since it is easy to play with people all over the world and learn about different cultures).

I just feel if I had the chance to go back again I might have been more fulfilled learning to really shred on a guitar since this is a skill which would be more likely to stay relevant over time. When I play modern video games I can really only call on a very limited amount of my counterstrike skillz.

It's like looking at the starcraft players in korea complaining about starcraft2 making their well honed skills less useful simply because of a software update. The same thing happens with programming a little but I can still apply most of my Visual Basic and PHP techniques now to writing python or something.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#72

Post by gizzlon » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 9:48 AM UTC

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #57

gwern wrote: post #40

If I may, David Foster Wallace (as so often) said it better: > “But it’s better for us not to know the kinds of sacrifices the professional-grade athlete has made to get so very good at one particular thing…the actual facts of the sacrifices repel us when we see them: basketball geniuses who cannot read, sprinters who dope themselves, defensive tackles who shoot up with bovine hormones until they collapse or explode.…

I think the DFW was a little melodramatic here. I don't think the commitment to true excellence necessarily detracts from other possible commitments in the long run. E.g. DFW was a writer of singular ability, and he was, at various points in his life, dedicated to tennis, philosophy, and mathematics. More to the point, the time spent being great at CS doesn't seem to have limited this guy's future ability to do thing…

"More to the point, the time spent being great at CS doesn't seem to have limited this guy's future ability to do things like work at a startup."

I agree it has not limited his ability to learn new things, but of course it has limited his ability to work at a startup. Just think of all the things he could be better at, from social interaction to programming, if he had spent less time playing CS.

I'm not saying he should regret it, I just think that we should all face the fact that we all make sacrifices. You can't have it all.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#73

Post by Tichy » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 9:57 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #36

I spent a fair amount of my youth playing counterstrike and still have fond memories of it. I also learned to program roughly around the same time and found the later far more fulfilling in the long run. I learned skills in programming in those years that I still use today, but whenever I even touch a public counter strike (source) server these days I get hopelessly owned by a new generation. I now see video games as…

Would you say the same thing about chess, which is arguably just as useless? Just wondering if it is mostly public esteem that makes you think so (chess would presumably be held in higher esteem - being a grandmaster in chess would gather more respect in the general public than being a grandmaster in CSS).

I don't mean it in a bad way, just seriously wondering what are worthwhile things to pursue. Should we discard any and all recreational activities and concentrate every waking hour on researching cancer cures? Even music and art seem very questionable, at least it is not clear why they should be more worthy than playing games.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#74

Post by jiggy2011 » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 10:01 AM UTC

kejadlen wrote: post #59

jiggy2011 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the case is that when you start playing a video game you don't start with the intention of playing it for 10000 hours, you just keep playing an realize you have invested so much time that you may as well keep playing and become the best.

Most people who trot out that "10,000 hours" figure don't remember the second part - it's 10,000 hours of _meaningful practice_. Being the best at something, including video games, isn't something that you just stumble into. Would you say that about someone who enjoys sports as a hobby? You say "may as well keep playing and become the best" as if video games somehow involve less skill or practice to become the best a…

I think it is mostly that video games are generally designed around quick gratification compared to most other activities, they are not usually designed to be your primary hobby (at least 1 game on it's own is not). Throw a relative newbie into a first person shooter game and they will probably score their first kill in a matter of minutes, it just doesn't ask any long term commitment from you. I imagine very few people started out thinking they would become CS champions, more likely they found it addictive and played allot then at some point took it to the next level and joined a clan etc.

Contrast this with learning the guitar for example, first you have to buy $100+ of stuff that is only useful for that hobby. Then you will try and play some songs but most likely your going to have 10+ hours of practice under your belt doing boring stuff like learning chords and getting callouses on your fingers before you can reliably play even very basic rock songs at full speed. The learning curve then becomes very steep, especially if you want to learn complicated solos and techniques but once you have mastered it then it is a skill that is kept for life. It is very unlikely that a new instrument will come out which renders your guitar obsolete.

All of the people that I used to play counterstrike with no longer play it at all or only play very occasionally. Contrast this with the people I know who started playing guitar instead (investing a similar number of hours) at a similar age. Almost all of them are still playing and are now very proficient. They are playing gigs and writing/releasing their own music. A few have even made careers from it.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#75

Post by junto » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 10:08 AM UTC

Looking back to a few years ago, I would actually say that I was addicted to CS. Playing matches in a clan is a sure fire way to drive the addiction because it becomes hard to leave without letting your teammates down.

Luckily, due to Steam's awful user account tools via the client and the website, I am unable to recover my Steam password. The only way to recover it is to deface the CD box by writing the support ticket number on it, taking a photograph of that defacement and the product key and then sending that photo to their support email address. Then they will reset your password.

You know what, I'm really not that bothered!

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#76

Post by jiggy2011 » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 10:22 AM UTC

mumm wrote: post #42

jiggy2011 wrote: post #36

I spent a fair amount of my youth playing counterstrike and still have fond memories of it. I also learned to program roughly around the same time and found the later far more fulfilling in the long run. I learned skills in programming in those years that I still use today, but whenever I even touch a public counter strike (source) server these days I get hopelessly owned by a new generation. I now see video games as…

I always knew there were more worthwhile pursuits and that's why, in hindsight, I struggle to accept the time I spent playing. But I never felt like it was downtime. I knew I was building skills that I would use again someday. It wasn't about trying to be the best at shooting a gun in a virtual world. It was about outthinking and outmaneuvering my opponent. Analyzing details and figuring out the best strategy. It was…

Getting involved in clan gaming certainly takes things to a whole new level. I remember trying to organize teams and enter various leagues as well as playing friendlies against other clans.

Not only that but you have to manage a geographically dispersed set of people over the Internet who have their own schedules and priorities. Some of the politics got very heated and of course you would always get somebody who was an incredible played but would always drop out of playing matches at the last minute or would find some minutiae to throw their toys out of the pram over.

Still an excellent lesson in management though, as well as having to plan tactics and be able to change these on the fly as the other team adapted to them and trying to close the gap when your team is losing and you cannot afford the weapon setup that you have based your strategy around. Very satisfying getting 3 frags in 1 clip with the USP and winning the round for your team :)

I do remember the public servers being utter every man for himself bedlam though, not to mention being accused of cheating when you are 30 kills to 1 death.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#77

Post by jodrellblank » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 10:49 AM UTC

gwern wrote: post #40

If I may, David Foster Wallace (as so often) said it better: > “But it’s better for us not to know the kinds of sacrifices the professional-grade athlete has made to get so very good at one particular thing…the actual facts of the sacrifices repel us when we see them: basketball geniuses who cannot read, sprinters who dope themselves, defensive tackles who shoot up with bovine hormones until they collapse or explode.…

He will say he is happy and mean it. Wish him well."

What's that supposed to mean? He will say he is happy and mean it, but really he isn't?

DFW committed suicide, I don't hold him as a great authority on what kinds of happiness are 'valid'.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#78

Post by manish_gill » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 10:57 AM UTC

kang wrote: post #61

There is a place called Kota in India. It is a hub of coaching institutes trying to assist highschool students get admission into top engineering and medical colleges(IIT,AIIMS) of India. >5000 hours of counterstrike is pretty common game-time that students living there spend and you would easily find >25000 kids of age 15-16 such types. Millions of students go there each year. Competition is so tough that hardly top…

Wow, never knew that about Kota. Had a friend who lived there for a year for IIT studies. He himself admits that he never once attended a single class and was mostly just having fun. Counter Strike in India is certainly big. I only wish Starcraft 2 was as well.

Oh, and can you tell me where in Delhi do these tournaments happen? I don't play much CS but earlier on in school, all I could think about was being a pro-gamer!

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#79

Post by arctangent » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 11:07 AM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #77

gwern wrote: post #40

If I may, David Foster Wallace (as so often) said it better: > “But it’s better for us not to know the kinds of sacrifices the professional-grade athlete has made to get so very good at one particular thing…the actual facts of the sacrifices repel us when we see them: basketball geniuses who cannot read, sprinters who dope themselves, defensive tackles who shoot up with bovine hormones until they collapse or explode.…

He will say he is happy and mean it. Wish him well." What's that supposed to mean? He will say he is happy and mean it, but really he isn't? DFW committed suicide, I don't hold him as a great authority on what kinds of happiness are 'valid'.

DFW is comparing one-dimensional geniuses to people who are retarded in some way. (Mental, emotional, social... take your pick.)

The person is happy only because they're so oblivious to the things that they're missing out on, and their very nature prevents them from gaining this knowledge.

Were they able to know what they were missing then they might not be so happy with their limited existence.

Re: "What I Miss About Counterstrike" - Blog authored by CSS legend JonMumm

#80

Post by jodrellblank » Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 11:59 AM UTC

arctangent wrote: post #79

jodrellblank wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He will say he is happy and mean it. Wish him well." What's that supposed to mean? He will say he is happy and mean it, but really he isn't? DFW committed suicide, I don't hold him as a great authority on what kinds of happiness are 'valid'.

DFW is comparing one-dimensional geniuses to people who are retarded in some way. (Mental, emotional, social... take your pick.) The person is happy only because they're so oblivious to the things that they're missing out on, and their very nature prevents them from gaining this knowledge. Were they able to know what they were missing then they might not be so happy with their limited existence.

Implying that seeing what they are missing out on and not being happy with their limited existence is better.

But seeing what you're missing out on sucks. Being unhappy because you have a limited existence sucks as an experience.

And it's not like you have an unlimited existence if you aren't a world class sports person, is it? You have different limits, but they aren't better or worse objectively. You can't trade tens of millions of adoring fans against a deep appreciation of city street planning and architecture and say one is undoubtedly better and the other certainly worse.