Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#211

Post by procinct » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

netsectoday wrote: post #201

thehappypm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

Quoted post unavailable.

Don’t iPhone have an indicator when the mic is recording? Also, this feels like it would be insanely easy to test by capturing the payloads sent to FB; you could even use something like Charles Proxy to do it.

FB having access to microphone makes sense for plenty of other completely innocent reasons (for example, if you can record a video from inside the app).

If this was actually true, I can’t help but feel that someone would have proven it technically by now instead of relying on these types of self experiment and anecdotes, especially given how commonly this is touted.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#212

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

yaddaor wrote: post #173

cookiengineer wrote: post #170

WhatsApp embeds google analytics into your client, which means that it does tag all your messages while you are viewing them (and also tags them with each open/close of the conversation). If you don't know this already, use App Warden to remove spyware handlers on Android and use RethinkDNS to block their ad domains.

What does "tag" imply? What exact data is supposedly taken by Google?

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#213

Post by snowwrestler » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #147

snowwrestler wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case folks don’t know this: on an iPhone you do not need to give an app access to all your photos in order to use photos in the app. Under Privacy > Photos, you can set “Selected Photos” instead of “All Photos” on a per-app basis. Then when you go to add a photo to the app, you first go through an iOS prompt to select the photos the app will have access to. Only then do you go through the app’s photo selection dia…

I just did this and the UI is weird and confusing - it looks like I need to statically pick photos in the settings app, which obviously won’t work for day to day use every time I take a photo and want to publish it to instagram. Not saying it doesn’t work like you say, just saying it doesn’t look like it does.

You can just hit “done” in the settings app and it will close (with no photos selected).

Then on Instagram (for example) when you go to post, you’ll get a message like “you’ve only let Instagram have partial access to your photos - Manage”. Tapping Manage will let you select photos that Instagram can access.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#214

Post by notduncansmith » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 3:01 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #172

I’m convinced WhatsApp’s e2e is BS. Because multiple times I’ve mentioned something I’ve never even googled and then had Facebook ads for those things show up minutes later. The most notable one being renting an apartment. I viewed an apartment then sent a message to the agent requesting window grills or latches and then had adverts for that stuff straight away. When ever I mention this on HN I get downvoted with lam…

I wonder if there’s some kind of side channel leaking the ad targeting data, for instance if you type something into WhatsApp and they add words that you type into a user-specific autocomplete dictionary (or your lexicographical profile or whatever other aggregate they keep for various business purposes). Then they use those aggregates to target users based on the words they use in conversation without “decrypting their messages” so to speak. Depending on what phone you use, any custom keyboards, etc there may be other ways for typed text to leak.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#215

Post by Hamuko » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 3:01 PM UTC

netsectoday wrote: post #201

thehappypm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

Quoted post unavailable.

>Zero coincidence

Yeah, it's probably not a coincidence that your wife is talking about X and is recognised by Facebook to be in a group of people that are interested in X.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#216

Post by rakoo » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 3:02 PM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #146

I think you partly may just be biased by happening to notice ads more if they fit the topic you sent to your wife or being lenient in deciding if ads meet the categorization. And if you dwell on an ad because it seems to match, you may get more similar ads. Here is how I think you could design a more robust (but less fun) experiment: - Come up with a bunch of topics, write them down on slips of paper, put the paper i…

A simpler protocol to realize that the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is probably what's happening:

- pick said topic, something you never cared about before, talk about it but don't write any messages containing it; - for 1 month record every ad you see about it; - send a message about the topic; - for another month, record every ad you see about it

Comparing the number of occurrences will tell you what is happening.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#217

Post by cuuupid » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 3:03 PM UTC

I don't think end-to-end encryption means what most people in this thread thinks it means. Yes, it's encrypted between devices. However, when I open Whatsapp on a new device, it pulls all my message history for the last 5 years. I wouldn't be able to do so without the keys. So to facilitate that, they must be storing the keys and sending them over on their end.

And if they have the keys then they can still read your messages!

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#218

Post by brigandish » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 3:03 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #172

I’m convinced WhatsApp’s e2e is BS. Because multiple times I’ve mentioned something I’ve never even googled and then had Facebook ads for those things show up minutes later. The most notable one being renting an apartment. I viewed an apartment then sent a message to the agent requesting window grills or latches and then had adverts for that stuff straight away. When ever I mention this on HN I get downvoted with lam…

Did you view the apartment with…?

- the agent present - you both had smartphones on you - they both had bluetooth data enabled - they are both signed into location services - you'd added the agent to your contacts or they add you to theirs - you took pictures (and didn't strip the EXIF data) - you exchanged emails with the agent via gmail - you rang each other via a VOIP service - you used a map app to find the place - you found the apartment via an online listing - you found your current place some multiple of a standard contract length ago (e.g. 1 year) - your data in aggregate statistically matches that of other people's who also looked for new apartments

The metadata just drips off and they sell it, it's repackaged, bundled up and sold on to others who then target you (personally or as part of a group) in their ad campaigns.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#219

Post by Snowbird3999 » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

What I desperately want at this point in time:

A button next to every ad that says "why me?" that details every byte of my data scraped to generate that specific ad. Was it a GPS location from an hour ago? Did you scan through my photos? Did you figure something out from my youtube watch history? TELL ME!

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#220

Post by issa » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

I realize that real life is more complicated than this, but if you tell companies "privacy is important to people" and "you will make more money by reading their messages", it is safe to assume companies will assure you that your data is private while using it to make money.