I see a lot of tinfoil theories in the comments but no one mentioning "url unfurl" capabilities. You send a link, it's encrypted end-to-end, it arrives to the other side, and the link is unfurled for display. Bam, Facebook knows you sent that link.
Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
141–150 of 473 posts
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. No, that's precisely what End-to-End encryption means.
It means that for strictly one receiver end-to-end encryption. When it's touted as a feature without explicitly stating that "all messages are sent only e2e encrypted and only to your receiver" we can't assume only the receiver is getting the message, it might be E2E encrypted for all traffic, between people using their own keys and nothing stops Meta from sending a different encrypted payload to their own servers wi…
So it's end-to-end encrypted, but your data is sent to some "ends" you didn't think it would be sent to? Well, if that's not a good reason to end your usage of WhatsApp, then I don't know what is...
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#143It's a shame this kind of thing is so hard to prove, otherwise it would be all over the media. People will write it off as 'coincidence'. "Perhaps you looked for or discussed it elsewhere". What happened with Skype before was that Microsoft would ping any links from their servers, so it was really easy to prove it by generating a new web server, publishing it nowhere and then mentioning it in a chat. This caused some…
It's not hard to prove at all. Randomized controlled study organized over the phone so it's subject to legal protection from surveillance, unlike random FB messages. If 200 people send preselected product communique over brand new devices and are 800% more likely to be targeted by ads for those or related products by the control group of the same size then we have enough for a legal case and discovery.
That's still a lot harder than to send 1 link by 1 person and immediately find it grabbed :)
It really should be airtight if they're not going to weasel out of it.
I kinda doubt Meta is doing it but on the other hand they do seem to be in heavy weather right now.
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#144The scarier thing to me is when ads match _conversations_ I have with my wife. I told her about this story this morning, and she reminded me about a conversation about stem cell research we had yesterday. I said something along the lines of 'I hope there is a breakthrough soon on regenerating the Isle of Langerhans in the pancreas to treat diabetes.' Sure enough, she noticed an article in her Google News feed later that day related to diabetes.
Once or twice may be a coincidence. Maybe. But this happens regularly and with startling specificity.
What could be listening? I'm a technologist like the rest of you. I know apps need permissions to the mic, I know it's not easy for an app to stay in the foreground. Is it my Roku? My smart TV?
Makes one want to go full Richard Stallman.
p.s. my wife just said it would be really funny if Google News showed an article now on people worrying about their tech listening to their conversations. I'll post an update if that happens...
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#145I had a video call with my mum on signal from her android phone to my macbook. Then I got very specific video recommendation in YouTube about our conversation within the same day. Her android is oppo. Could it be leaking the signal call and then cross match me with the phone numbers to my google account?
Yes, it’s possible. If you have an android device, it’s possible your device (or a ‘bad app’) is sending signals too.
An easy way to test is by talking about something (but not researching it) that’ll put you “in market” for advertising targeting.
You must say things to show you’re in-market. Eg. “I really want to buy a new AWD pick up truck” — include some brand names and specifics, which will give the spy device more confidence about the ads to show you, something like “Toyota Tundras seem better than the Ford F150, but maybe I should get the Hummer EV truck”.
Try variations of this “conversation” a few times over 2 days to help give the ML model confidence. Then, monitor ads on social media, pre-roll ads and new ephemeral recommendation tiles on YT that suddenly feature videos on this topic.
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#146I think you partly may just be biased by happening to notice ads more if they fit the topic you sent to your wife or being lenient in deciding if ads meet the categorization. And if you dwell on an ad because it seems to match, you may get more similar ads.
Here is how I think you could design a more robust (but less fun) experiment:
- Come up with a bunch of topics, write them down on slips of paper, put the paper into a hat
- Each Monday, draw three topics from the hat, send some WhatsApp messages about the first, Messenger messages about the second, and don’t discuss the third. Don’t put the topics back in the hat.
- If you see any ads relating to one of the topics, screenshot them and save screenshots to eg your computer with a bit of the topic
- Separately, record which topic went to which platform
- After doing this for a while, go through the screenshots and (each of you and your wife or ideally other people) give a rating for how well the ad matches the topic. To avoid bias, you shouldn’t know which app saw the topic.
- Now work out average ratings / the distribution across the three products (WhatsApp vs Messenger vs none) and compare
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
She probably gave Instagram access to her photo library (not unreasonable for a photo sharing app). That means the Instagram app can scan her latest pictures in the background when it's opened. I think it's more likely that the data was leaked this way.
In case folks don’t know this: on an iPhone you do not need to give an app access to all your photos in order to use photos in the app. Under Privacy > Photos, you can set “Selected Photos” instead of “All Photos” on a per-app basis. Then when you go to add a photo to the app, you first go through an iOS prompt to select the photos the app will have access to. Only then do you go through the app’s photo selection dia…
I just did this and the UI is weird and confusing - it looks like I need to statically pick photos in the settings app, which obviously won’t work for day to day use every time I take a photo and want to publish it to instagram.
Not saying it doesn’t work like you say, just saying it doesn’t look like it does.
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#148The scarier thing to me is when ads match _conversations_ I have with my wife. I told her about this story this morning, and she reminded me about a conversation about stem cell research we had yesterday. I said something along the lines of 'I hope there is a breakthrough soon on regenerating the Isle of Langerhans in the pancreas to treat diabetes.' Sure enough, she noticed an article in her Google News feed later t…
It's possible some of it is simply Baader Meinhof https://www.healthline.com/health/baader-meinhof-phenomenon but it could be something deeper (or something forgotten). If my wife asks me about something, I often search or google it almost without thinking, even if I never use any results.
It should be possible to run scientifically sound experiments to show if it's happening.
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#149The scarier thing to me is when ads match _conversations_ I have with my wife. I told her about this story this morning, and she reminded me about a conversation about stem cell research we had yesterday. I said something along the lines of 'I hope there is a breakthrough soon on regenerating the Isle of Langerhans in the pancreas to treat diabetes.' Sure enough, she noticed an article in her Google News feed later t…
It is totally weird when this kind of thing happens. I attribute it to my husband Googling and clicking on links related to our conversation with IP based tracking. I've found Instagram showing me things more related to my husband's interests if I haven't used it in a while.
Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?
#150The scarier thing to me is when ads match _conversations_ I have with my wife. I told her about this story this morning, and she reminded me about a conversation about stem cell research we had yesterday. I said something along the lines of 'I hope there is a breakthrough soon on regenerating the Isle of Langerhans in the pancreas to treat diabetes.' Sure enough, she noticed an article in her Google News feed later t…
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