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Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

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Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#101

Post by nightpool »

988747 wrote: post #37
bzxcvbn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The budget of the EU parliament? What do you mean? The budget of the parliament was about 740k€ in 2022. Did you mean the budget of the EU itself? It's about what you said (180B€ in 2022). Of course, that doesn't account for individual member States' budgets. The EU's budget is dwarfed by the aggregate of all members' budgets, and it is lower than most of the big EU countries' budgets.

Did you mean 740k EUR per person? I can't find the whole budget right now, but it costs EU parliament over 100 million just to move it back and forth between Brussels and Strasbourg (which is totally pointless and is only done so that France can feel important). They also apparently spend 1 billion per year on translators. EDIT: I guess I offended some French people, hence the downvotes :)

Apparently this is correct:

> In [2014], the European Court of Auditors (ECA) carried out a further analysis of the potential savings if all meetings were held in Brussels, following a request from the Parliament. Their estimate of the cost of the monthly move is 113.800.000 euro.

(From an EJTA fact checking website, which labeled a separate 200MM euro number as "mostly false" https://eufactcheck.eu/factcheck/mostly-false-travelling-cir...)

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#102

Post by izacus »

nottorp wrote: post #38

> Android has created more choice for everyone, not less Did it? I can choose between an iOS phone and an Android phone. I may be able to choose from different manufacturers on the Android side, but on the software side there are just two options.

And before that you could choose between multiple brands that wouldn't run the same software and could only download apps on a proprietary carrier app store.

Someone built an app for Nokia Symbian phones and released it with O2 UK? Well, go to hell if you had Sony Ericsson Symbian phone because that phones Symbian was incompatible on API level with the Nokia, despite having the same OS. You could even have the same Nokia, but good luck if yours had the T-Mobile DE bloatware and their own store with their own profit sharing deals.

Google enforces compatibility between Android phones with CDD/CTS/VTS which ensures that the phones support a consistent set of working APIs that application devs can rely on.

Before CTS/CDD/VTS tests grew enough, we Android devs had hellova time making sure our apps worked across Samsungs, LGs, Nokias and whatnot.

EU attacking Google for ensuring the Android ecosystem is actually compatible is just ensuring that Apple will dominate with it's lack of choice in the mobile market. The fact that EU officials excluded Apple from consideration of how mobile markets work is telling just how disconnected from reality they are. Apple swept away all the old competitors BECAUSE it didn't have the fragmented mess of lacking cross-device, cross-region and cross-carrier compatibility.

And just to be clear - I'm not against EU issuing out fines to big tech (god knows I've defended that a lot of times), but in this case it's actively toxic for us Europeans.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#103

Post by markdestouches »

robertlagrant wrote: post #77
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. And if you put Sundar Pichai and Mark Zuckerberg in jail for a year or two, watch the tech industry whip itself into shape in weeks. Hold people actually responsible for the damage they do and you'll see real change.

I doubt that giving the power to overseas nations to criminalise and incarcerate US citizens has no downsides.

You are already eligible for punishment for crimes committed in foreign countries. I don't see how this makes things any different.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#104

Post by ocdtrekkie »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #82
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy to switch between giving all your data to Google and giving all your data to Google, sure. Bear in mind, Android hardware is no longer unique or distinctive, every glass rectangle is the same, so those choices are pointless, but our lack of privacy is pervasive.

Steve Jobs pointed this out along time ago. No one cares about the hardware. Nice hardware is nice but what we care about is the software. Previously, we would switch from Nokia to Sony we would lose our ringtones, our games, our apps, our photos, etc. When each phone operator had their own operating system, it was honestly terrible. And honestly, shoehorning privacy into a conversation about choices in phones is a p…

Privacy is the top concern I have with phones. The fact that 80% of them globally are compromised by default is a huge deal. Nobody informed should be rolling with Android, anywhere, and yet here we are.

Also, I care about hardware... when it matters. Sell me a keyboard slider, the DROID 4 was the last compelling reason to care about hardware and we've all been bored senseless since.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#105

Post by cloverich »

Hamcha wrote: post #63
Salgat wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What they did with their manufacturers is a different issue, but in general they offer a lot more options than Apple. Android allows Manufacturers (such as Amazon and Samsung) to have their own app stores and allows for side loading apps, both of which are impossible with Apple.

You have it backward, Amazon and Samsung's own appstores are desperate attempts to get enough traction out of Play Store so that they are not forced to succumb to Google's demands. The issue here isn't Android not being open (which it is), the problem is Google having a lot of control (including full veto power) on devices shipping with Google Play Services, while making them an increasingly necessary part of Android…

Well also, and note its been a while, but when I used non-Google software on the various other phones I've tried (such as Samsung), the first thing I used to do was uninstall all of their software and (if a available) get the Google versions, because they were usually much better. But this isn't new -- back when I was still purchasing Windows machines it was the same way. For whatever reason I just never found an OEM for laptops or phones whose software seemed to add any value.

Now that I work in Software I get it. Most companies are just really bad at making it.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#106

Post by fatboy »

Normille wrote: post #70

Cool. The EU does have its [many!] faults. But they have a pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights and consumer choice. Next up I'd like to see them do the same for the plethora of incompatible cordless power-tool systems out there as they did with insisting all mobile phones standardise on a USB connector.

I think that's a bit trickier. If Makita or whoever was forced to change their batteries, anyone with a big catalogue of their tools would be pretty miffed.

Also, I've mentioned this on hn before, there is already the Cordless Alliance, which does exactly this.

Sadly, there's only a couple of useful-in-a-mainstream-sense brands in there: Mafell and Metabo. The rest are very niche.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#107

Post by poizan42 »

madsbuch wrote: post #78
samwillis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than fine the company, fine the shareholders of public companies. If they can’t afford their share of the fine, then they have to sell their shares to pay it. That would immediately force them to comply. Edit: Although looking at that and this fine, if you own $1000 of google shares, you would owe $3…

This is an absurd idea. That would be a complete detriment to one of the greatest innovations in financing: Seperation of capital and responsibility. When you buy a stock you know you can not loose more than the stocks value, so you dare to invest. Also, would bond holders also be burdened with this? what about derivatives?

Maybe a better idea would be to force the company to emit new shares by some percantage of their total number of shares and transfer those to the state. That way shareholders lose a bit of value by dilution. And after enough fines the state will eventually reach a controlling majority ownership and can directly stop the company from further transgressions.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#108

Post by londons_explore »

tmoravec wrote: post #93
Normille wrote: post #70

Cool. The EU does have its [many!] faults. But they have a pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights and consumer choice. Next up I'd like to see them do the same for the plethora of incompatible cordless power-tool systems out there as they did with insisting all mobile phones standardise on a USB connector.

> pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights Are you sure EU has "pretty good track record" with these fines of Google, FB, et al.? If anything, I'd say the EU puts a mild theatre every now and then, and gives the US giants a free pass otherwise.

What really matters is how many dollars did they take from european citizens and businesses, and how many tax and fine dollars did they return.

Europe needs to make sure these tech giants get to keep just enough money that they don't pull out of europe entirely, but not much more.

Big fines are a start, but a better approach is taxation, since that takes away the regulatory risk for the companies.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#109

Post by skywal_l »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #81
guitarbill wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jailing executives is too hard Do you mean "too difficult" or "too bigger punishment"? Either way, I disagree. If they reap the reward of huge salaries, they ought to take some of the risks.

Too difficult: you need to prove they knew and took a series of actions to get there, but it's very hard to do, and they usually have fall guys all the way to protect themselves. It's also easier than ever to destroy evidence. The cost of going after those companies is ridiculous already, once they are proven guilty, it would be simpler if we could punish the company as a person, than to find a real person to punish.…

Maybe but when you are CEO, the fact of "not knowing" should not protect you from consequences. If not jail, at least being banned from being a corporate officer in any capacity and relinquish your stocks/benefits/whatever so at least you remove the profit motive of fraud.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#110

Post by [deleted] »

robertlagrant wrote: post #77
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. And if you put Sundar Pichai and Mark Zuckerberg in jail for a year or two, watch the tech industry whip itself into shape in weeks. Hold people actually responsible for the damage they do and you'll see real change.

I doubt that giving the power to overseas nations to criminalise and incarcerate US citizens has no downsides.

[deleted]
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