Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B • Hacker News Board

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#91

Post by capableweb » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:51 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #81

guitarbill wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jailing executives is too hard Do you mean "too difficult" or "too bigger punishment"? Either way, I disagree. If they reap the reward of huge salaries, they ought to take some of the risks.

Too difficult: you need to prove they knew and took a series of actions to get there, but it's very hard to do, and they usually have fall guys all the way to protect themselves. It's also easier than ever to destroy evidence. The cost of going after those companies is ridiculous already, once they are proven guilty, it would be simpler if we could punish the company as a person, than to find a real person to punish.…

> Too difficult: you need to prove they knew and took a series of actions to get there, but it's very hard to do, and they usually have fall guys all the way to protect themselves. It's also easier than ever to destroy evidence.

Make it illegal not to have a "custody trace" of how a decision came to be. Even if the CEO came up with it in the shower, for the thing to be implemented, it has to come across a lot of individuals. Make them having to keep all of that data around, and required to disclose how something came to be in case it's revealed as unlawful.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#92

Post by BiteCode_dev » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:51 PM UTC

darkwater wrote: post #68

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really need the equivalent of jail time for companies. Clearly after a certain size, fines do not cut it. Jailing executives is too hard, so laws should exist that remove the company from a market for x years or something, like if they were in a cell.

But this would hit on workers who might be really innocent/unaware, depending on their roles. If you go this way, then just jail current/past executives, it would be more fair.

On the short run, yes. But on the long run, that would be more effective. Once the customers and workers have been burned once, they will be very hesitant to give their trust to the company again.

Companies would then have to get their things in order quickly, and win back the trust. A very effective deterrent.

Imagine Google being out of the EU market for 3 months. How many youtubers would try and publish their videos on other plateforms? That would open competitions. People would boo google everytime they suck because they would fear for themself.

It would create pain right now, but a sane pressure that would force companies to stop playing with fire because they know they can't get a bad burn.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#93

Post by tmoravec » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:51 PM UTC

Normille wrote: post #70

Cool. The EU does have its [many!] faults. But they have a pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights and consumer choice. Next up I'd like to see them do the same for the plethora of incompatible cordless power-tool systems out there as they did with insisting all mobile phones standardise on a USB connector.

> pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights

Are you sure EU has "pretty good track record" with these fines of Google, FB, et al.? If anything, I'd say the EU puts a mild theatre every now and then, and gives the US giants a free pass otherwise.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#94

Post by MarkusWandel » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

Hamcha wrote: post #43

nottorp wrote: post #38

> Android has created more choice for everyone, not less Did it? I can choose between an iOS phone and an Android phone. I may be able to choose from different manufacturers on the Android side, but on the software side there are just two options.

Remember when Google refused to put Youtube on Windows Phone and when Microsoft made their own client, Google forced them to take it off their own store? Truly advocating for more choice. (Press at the time: https://www.theregister.com/2013/08/16/windows_phone_youtube... )

I had a Windows phone. The web version of Youtube worked fine. The Youtube app on Android is such a pain in the a* that sometimes I use the web version of Youtube on an Android tablet I have!

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#95

Post by bdefore » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

madsbuch wrote: post #78

samwillis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than fine the company, fine the shareholders of public companies. If they can’t afford their share of the fine, then they have to sell their shares to pay it. That would immediately force them to comply. Edit: Although looking at that and this fine, if you own $1000 of google shares, you would owe $3…

This is an absurd idea. That would be a complete detriment to one of the greatest innovations in financing: Seperation of capital and responsibility. When you buy a stock you know you can not loose more than the stocks value, so you dare to invest. Also, would bond holders also be burdened with this? what about derivatives?

That great innovation is at the root of the market's disregard for negative externalities such as climate change. I'm not in support of jailing shareholders, but say a tax on the dividends of shareholders who front the capital for companies that impose a burden on civilization doesn't sound outrageous to me. Especially since fining the company directly doesn't necessarily discourage bad behavior at the tiers of power that have the ability to take a different path.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#96

Post by BiteCode_dev » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

madsbuch wrote: post #78

samwillis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than fine the company, fine the shareholders of public companies. If they can’t afford their share of the fine, then they have to sell their shares to pay it. That would immediately force them to comply. Edit: Although looking at that and this fine, if you own $1000 of google shares, you would owe $3…

This is an absurd idea. That would be a complete detriment to one of the greatest innovations in financing: Seperation of capital and responsibility. When you buy a stock you know you can not loose more than the stocks value, so you dare to invest. Also, would bond holders also be burdened with this? what about derivatives?

Not that absurd. People would start doing way more due diligences to invest. They would put pressure on the company to not do something stupid.

You invest in bad actors and want to make money with it? Well you should pay the consequences for that.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#97

Post by ocdtrekkie » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #77

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. And if you put Sundar Pichai and Mark Zuckerberg in jail for a year or two, watch the tech industry whip itself into shape in weeks. Hold people actually responsible for the damage they do and you'll see real change.

I doubt that giving the power to overseas nations to criminalise and incarcerate US citizens has no downsides.

Both individuals have committed crimes (perjury, for starters) here in the United States as well. We can jail them here!

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#98

Post by registeredcorn » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #77

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. And if you put Sundar Pichai and Mark Zuckerberg in jail for a year or two, watch the tech industry whip itself into shape in weeks. Hold people actually responsible for the damage they do and you'll see real change.

I doubt that giving the power to overseas nations to criminalise and incarcerate US citizens has no downsides.

I understand what you mean, but keep in mind that many nations do have extradition treaties with one another.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#99

Post by londons_explore » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:54 PM UTC

Normille wrote: post #70

Cool. The EU does have its [many!] faults. But they have a pretty good track record when it comes to consumer rights and consumer choice. Next up I'd like to see them do the same for the plethora of incompatible cordless power-tool systems out there as they did with insisting all mobile phones standardise on a USB connector.

The cordless power tools typically have the battery management system in the device, not in the battery. The battery tends to contain protection circuitry, but no logic that determines charge rate etc.

That means every device manufacturer will claim, even if the law requires that devices must all have the same plug, that a competitors device drew too much current, or charged their battery too fast/too slow/at too a low a temperature, and thats why performance sucks.

In reality, these technical problems could be solved - but device manufacturers will make the small hurdle into a big one when explaining why they can't all standardize.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#100

Post by dahfizz » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

guitarbill wrote: post #59

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really need the equivalent of jail time for companies. Clearly after a certain size, fines do not cut it. Jailing executives is too hard, so laws should exist that remove the company from a market for x years or something, like if they were in a cell.

> Jailing executives is too hard Do you mean "too difficult" or "too bigger punishment"? Either way, I disagree. If they reap the reward of huge salaries, they ought to take some of the risks.

Proving guilt is difficult. Execs can and do go to jail when it can be proved they personally did something illegal.

Guilt by association is not acceptable in a first world country. You don't go to jail if your brother commits a crime, you shouldn't go to jail if your company commits a crime. You only go to jail if you commit a crime.