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Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

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Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#111

This kind of Malthusian thinking has a horrible track record. Imagine if we drastically altered the course of technological progress every time a cabal of "experts" declares that we're going to destroy the planet. I'm not arguing that we should be reckless with the environment, but there are massive existential risks to humanity with this kind of self-limiting belief system. It's not obvious that one side of the argu…

That's the third post in the line of saying that this is still a far fetched or just far away maybe assumption - which is mind boggling to me because it is jot a cabal of experts but basically science agrees we are very much on the edge (time horizon is uncertain in relation to a human life, but in regard to earths age too close to the edge..) to do that right now?

And even if we'd had the time, our resources are finite, if we could do better (=sustainable for me) right now, why wait and sit on the lazy path and hope for future technological advances?

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#112
post #97

Similar things were predicted in the 70s but new sources of energy and improvements in productivity invalidated those predictions. Obviously at some point limits will kick in (unless we can expand to other planets) but what to do about that is more of a political question than a scientific one. I personally think it is more appealing to attempt expanding the limits, as we've done in the past, than to pre-emptively ad…

Would law of physics kick in ? If it takes thousands of years to produce oil/gas/coal, and months to extract and consume it... then what political solution do have ? My concern is that we might hit an energy crisis (Russia/Ukraine is just the tip of the iceberg). We need oil/gas/coal for everything around us (clothes, transportation, heat, cement, iron, energy). For energy we could use nuclear for baseline, and some…

Electricity can be turned into gas. People do not need to live like US suburbanites. As fossil fuels deplete, this will happen automatically, through the price mechanism. That said, fossil fuels are nowhere near to depletion and may well last for centuries.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#113
post #96
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole paper is lazy, panic-ridden grift. Why lazy? Because it's core thesis is that fossil fuels are a natural constraint... The word "nuclear" does not appear a single time in the entire paper! We have more than enough carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and nitrogen on this earth to do incredible things given an energy source. It's time to stop dooming and start exploring. Also, fuck Mars. Why not try to make the desert…

I agree. We spending ridcolous amount of money and fuel to colonizing Mars/space but at same time we are not able to feed millions starving children on our planet. Instead of panicking we should change our politics, that seems to me, is pathological in many ways. Our planet have enough space and energy sources. For example in Russia there is a lot of inhabited places with great weather conditions to live, but it is p…

> I agree. We spending ridcolous amount of money and fuel to colonizing Mars/space but at same time we are not able to feed millions starving children on our planet.

And yet, in the very next sentence you contradict your own point (and rightly so): One is almost exclusively a technological problem, the other is almost exclusively a political problem. In nearly all cases, the reasons for a nation being underdeveloped are a mix of internal and external politics, and we still haven't figured out how to help them without making things worse in the long term. That's why it won't make one bit of a difference to them if we colonize Mars or not.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#114
post #66

I got to the plan section and was mighty disappointed. This is simply a treatise on how bad humans and civilization are in the eyes of the new age Gaia religion. All problems and very few “pro human” solutions.

That's a problem with this article, and too many like it. OK, we're going to run out of various natural resources over the next 100-200 years, let alone the next 1000-2000. We will have a mostly sustainable society, like it or not. But it need not be a low-tech one. Energy probably won't be a problem. We have so many low-cost renewable sources now that the fossil fuel industry has trouble getting capital. The energy…

Recycling steel as steel is a pretty widespread thing to do, and steel accounts for almost 90% of manganese consumption.

If you want manganese for some non-steel purpose, A36 structural steel (like girders) is 1% manganese, which admittedly is less than ideal; manganese nodules are up to 30% manganese, and in the US people mine manganese ores of less than 5% manganese content. (The ores sell for about US$7 per tonne, and given that manganese is the 12th most abundant element in the Earth's crust, they might always be cheap.) But if you're looking for ores, well, discarded non-rechargeable alkaline batteries are more than 30% manganese, so you're probably better off digging through landfills than diving to the bottom of the sea.

I think X-ray fluorescence scanning is a thing that minimills have been doing for decades.

Overall I think we should expect recycling to be a major industry. Your point that lithium batteries are a far higher grade source of lithium than ores or brines is a good one, and applicable to many products, though I'm not sure if it's literally true in this case. Given lithium-ion batteries' energy density of about 500 kJ/kg as against the 13901 coulombs per gram of the lithium ions themselves, working out to 51 MJ/kg Li at 3.7 volts, the batteries can't be much more than about 1% lithium, and I think there actually are Bolivian brines that are richer than that, certainly if you omit the water. But for many resources, deposits found in landfills will be the richest available terrestrial resource for a long time.

For many minerals the USGS Yearbooks from four years ago give a more complete picture than the MCS, which are indeed great: https://www.usgs.gov/centers/national-minerals-information-c...

The Murphy et al. article points out that we can get through the next 1000+ years at current growth rates without even expanding beyond the solar system or unlocking new sources of energy such as Hawking radiation, though for some reason it's pessimistic about our chances of doing so.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#115
post #105
post #70

The graph says it all and by the way similar graphs exist for lithium and all the rare earth elements to construct so called renewables.

We don't need rare earths to make renewables, we choose them because they are cheaper; and calling renewables "so called" in this context is a bit weird even though yes the sun will eventually die.

We mostly don't use rare earths to make renewable energy at all. Solar panels and lithium batteries don't have any rare earths in them. Most wind turbines do: https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/J... but Amory Lovins argues that the advantage of doing so is small or even nonexistent: https://rmi.org/rmi-reality-check-greener-friendlier-alterna...

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#116
post #36

I do think some of the concerns here are right on the nose > What can be done to minimize the chances of colossal failure or sub-systemic breakdown, which in the worst case could threaten preservation of science and human knowledge? It seems like the two extremes are degrowth and malthus on the one hand, and haughty denialist expansionism on the other. One is borderline eugenicist and denies billions of people of our…

In my opinion the issue with the balance here is that no matter where you fall on the "climate scale belief" (except probably the most extreme of deniers), people consider anyone that thinks a better future than you is coming will be labelled a denier, while anyone who thinks a worse future than you think is coming is given a soft pass as just having stronger convictions. That unfortunately leaves the vast majority o…

The choice isn't even starting from the middle of the spectrum. We already have the foot on the accelerator, and it's unlikely we'll let up with our current generation of leaders. I think we'll continue to pollute at a rate far too great for the planet to handle, and we're going to have to get very good at remediation to continue living here.

It will only be once the next generation of leaders comes into power, maybe even the generation after that, as they will be living the climate reality enough to want to fix it (whichever level of severity it ends up being). At which point we'll be needing to focus on remediation still, before finally, hopefully, creating some kind of sustainable version of our current societies.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#117
post #36

I do think some of the concerns here are right on the nose > What can be done to minimize the chances of colossal failure or sub-systemic breakdown, which in the worst case could threaten preservation of science and human knowledge? It seems like the two extremes are degrowth and malthus on the one hand, and haughty denialist expansionism on the other. One is borderline eugenicist and denies billions of people of our…

I don't see de-growth as an extreme option, in fact it is the only outcome possible in the long term, either in a planned manner, or through collapse.

In terms of denialists, I am afraid that actually the majority of people are overwhelmed by the huge issues we are facing, and just think we should enjoy life and forget about any responsibility.

I don't want to lose hope, but as things are now, I am afraid that we are far more likely to face collapse than to find a solution.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#118
post #36

I do think some of the concerns here are right on the nose > What can be done to minimize the chances of colossal failure or sub-systemic breakdown, which in the worst case could threaten preservation of science and human knowledge? It seems like the two extremes are degrowth and malthus on the one hand, and haughty denialist expansionism on the other. One is borderline eugenicist and denies billions of people of our…

In my opinion the issue with the balance here is that no matter where you fall on the "climate scale belief" (except probably the most extreme of deniers), people consider anyone that thinks a better future than you is coming will be labelled a denier, while anyone who thinks a worse future than you think is coming is given a soft pass as just having stronger convictions. That unfortunately leaves the vast majority o…

> Actual true deniers that say human have no effect in global climate, IMHO, are so few that they are not even worth mentioning.

I'm not sure this is true, but even if it is, I think it's only become true recently.

It's getting harder to deny climate change lately because it's more obvious every year that the climate is changing. It's noticeably hotter and drier in the UK every year than it used to be. Hell, I'm standing at a bus stop as I write this at 9am and I'm only wearing a light jacket. I'm pretty sure that would be unusually warm for a September morning ten years ago, but the whole month has been like this in 2022.

I don't hear people saying "climate change isn't happening" much anymore - the more common sentiment now seems to be a shrug. "It can't be that bad, can it? Or at least the really bad stuff won't happen until at least a few decades after I'm dead? I'm sure we'll figure something out - technology keeps getting better so humans will probably solve this problem. And anyway there's not like I can do anything about it personally so I might as well just enjoy the weather." That's the prevailing attitude now, I think.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#119
post #36

I do think some of the concerns here are right on the nose > What can be done to minimize the chances of colossal failure or sub-systemic breakdown, which in the worst case could threaten preservation of science and human knowledge? It seems like the two extremes are degrowth and malthus on the one hand, and haughty denialist expansionism on the other. One is borderline eugenicist and denies billions of people of our…

I don't see de-growth as an extreme option, in fact it is the only outcome possible in the long term, either in a planned manner, or through collapse. In terms of denialists, I am afraid that actually the majority of people are overwhelmed by the huge issues we are facing, and just think we should enjoy life and forget about any responsibility. I don't want to lose hope, but as things are now, I am afraid that we are…

What do we mean with de-growth here? Human world population? Energy-consumption per human? long-lasting-non-recyclable-waste per human? Mankind GDP? Wealth distribution discrepancy?

On collapse, the only serious book I red was Jared Diamond's "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed".

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#120
Without competition you don't have a market. You don't even have political discourse. You have centralized, planned economy and society, clearly defined 'optima', in which the academics have all the power. I think this should be added to the discussion section as there is an obvious conflict of interest here. Maybe we shoulkd have a world without power instead ...
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