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Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

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Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#61
post #3

>infinite exponential growth which is impossible on a finite planet. its impossible in any space with non negative curvature. the kind of growth that is unsustainable in a finite region is any growth at all.

Also if we really value life, we should probably optimize for total lives lived. The universe will not last forever and entire galaxies are being lost to both the cosmic horizon and blackholes at an alarming rate. For some reason Earth seems to be the only planet with life, so every second we spend without making life interplanetary we are snuffing out an unfathomable number of future human and animal lives.

I think you can value Life without maximizing number of total deaths (or total lives lived, same thing). At some point quality matters as well as quantity.

If maximizing the total number of lives is really all that's important, we should cease all human activity that isn't necessary to sending ants to other planets.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. There are resource limits, unfortunately (I guess?). Thermodynamics is a hard limit. There are many soft limits as well. Please look at this paper for an incredibly well researched physics-based review: (to appear in Nature Physics) https://tmurphy.physics.ucsd.edu/papers/limits-econ-final.pd...

Limits which are millions, billions, or trillions of times beyond current capacities. For the moment, thermodynamic limits don't apply.

Per the article, actually about 100-1000 times beyond current capacities.

In a way I agree that the feasible limits, even on Earth, may be orders of magnitude larger (say, in terms of population, perhaps) than we currently have. But the current rate of growth in any case is probably unsustainable because of imbalances like co2 emissions. I do think it's feasible to change to renewable energy in the short term, if only political motivation was a bit higher (please, go out and vote focused on climate change, folks!). If I were to lay out a strategy for humankind, I'd say we should focus on climate change for the next few decades, and then we can resume growing (to avoid possible collapse).

Limits to technology are actually non-trivial due to the atomic nature of objects, limited number of chemical elements with limited range of properties, etc.. Intelligence itself isn't free and keeping the Great Self-sustaining Rube Goldberg contraption working is not trivial. It's very hard to predict what limitations we can overcome -- see Moore's law slowing down. Some limits we've almost reached such as luminous efficacy (LEDs in lm/W). Soon we'll be faced with the question of whether we want to make Earth into a Caves of Steel landscape (ending most natural life to create a hyper-efficient human/machine habitat) capable of sustaining more humans or a Solarpunk landscape (preserving natural ecosystems) with a more limited population. I think there's a large degree of arrogance to the first, because I don't feel competent enough to evaluate the true value of animal lives, supposing a large quantity of animals are sentient, and they have intrinsic scientific and cultural value. I think this requires an exercise in imagination from all of us. In any case, it's probably a great idea if we could at least keep the oceans, rainforests, and major national parks healthy.

One crazy dream I have is to colonize not Mars, but Mercury. In Mercury solar energy density is crazy high. There's even some thermal energy from the solar thermal gradient. You can dig to get to nice temperature ranges and be safe from radiation, all this works well since the planet is tidally locked and therefore doesn't rotate, there's no diurnal variation. You can build a crazy Cave-of-Steel there and live your life in a cramped cell playing video games (or [insert activity]), if that's what your vision of heaven is.

In any case: Hack the Planet!*

*: In a good way, of course :)

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#63
post #60

This kind of Malthusian thinking has a horrible track record. Imagine if we drastically altered the course of technological progress every time a cabal of "experts" declares that we're going to destroy the planet. I'm not arguing that we should be reckless with the environment, but there are massive existential risks to humanity with this kind of self-limiting belief system. It's not obvious that one side of the argu…

This whole paper is lazy, panic-ridden grift. Why lazy? Because it's core thesis is that fossil fuels are a natural constraint... The word "nuclear" does not appear a single time in the entire paper! We have more than enough carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and nitrogen on this earth to do incredible things given an energy source. It's time to stop dooming and start exploring. Also, fuck Mars. Why not try to make the desert…

The clouds of Venus, 50km above the surface, also seem like a neat place to colonize. (relatively speaking)

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#66

I got to the plan section and was mighty disappointed. This is simply a treatise on how bad humans and civilization are in the eyes of the new age Gaia religion. All problems and very few “pro human” solutions.

That's a problem with this article, and too many like it.

OK, we're going to run out of various natural resources over the next 100-200 years, let alone the next 1000-2000. We will have a mostly sustainable society, like it or not. But it need not be a low-tech one.

Energy probably won't be a problem. We have so many low-cost renewable sources now that the fossil fuel industry has trouble getting capital. The energy situation may look bad for another 10-20 years, but not for much longer than that.

What looks like a problem? The US Geological Survey has studies for all the major useful minerals.[1][2]

Some minerals are recycled easily because they're used in their elemental form. Copper and aluminum are good examples. Others get used up by being combined with other minerals in a way that's hard to undo. Manganese and vanadium are good examples, because they go into steelmaking. It's hard to un-make steel, although you can recycle it as steel. Something to expect is metal scrap sorting that does a quick spectrographic analysis on each item and routes it to the appropriate bin for re-melting. There's probably a startup opportunity there.

Expect lithium battery recycling to be a major industry. Lithium batteries are a far higher grade source of lithium than ores or brines.

Biologic systems are more recyclable. Biology is mostly C, H, O, and N, assembled in different ways. This doesn't necessarily mean "natural". We can expect to see a bigger role for semi-biological processes such as fermentation, synthetic enzymes, and such. The Impossible Burger uses a synthetic enzyme to produce the taste of blood people want in a burger.

This sort of thing is probably enough to get through the next 100-200 years. The next 1000-2000 years will be tougher. But more technology will be available.

[1] https://www.usgs.gov/programs/mineral-resources-program

[2] https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2022/mcs2022.pdf

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think we will ever turn back to eugenics? It has deeply immoral roots and has led to some of the most messed up scenarios in our history, but it is also a crazy powerful tool we have been unable to leverage in a non-evil way. (This is kinda tangential but related) I have a weird theory about humanities purpose: Assuming someone/thing created life (if life wasn't created then it truly is random chaos and we hav…

This is one of the wildest things I’ve read on the internet… this year? Why does a lack of creative design mean human experience is meaningless?

Haha thanks

Well a lack of a creator means we invent our own purpose I suppose, and garner whatever ethereal meaning from that we can.

That just feels hollow to me. The idea that we are just biological machines serving the unfathomable aims of some sky daddy is unsettling but suits me better than our purpose being a bunch of lame platitudes about being kind or whatever.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#68
Similar things were predicted in the 70s but new sources of energy and improvements in productivity invalidated those predictions. Obviously at some point limits will kick in (unless we can expand to other planets) but what to do about that is more of a political question than a scientific one. I personally think it is more appealing to attempt expanding the limits, as we've done in the past, than to pre-emptively adopt austerity measures to live within estimated limits.

Re: Modernity is incompatible with planetary limits: a PLAN for the future

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limits which are millions, billions, or trillions of times beyond current capacities. For the moment, thermodynamic limits don't apply.

Per the article, actually about 100-1000 times beyond current capacities. In a way I agree that the feasible limits, even on Earth, may be orders of magnitude larger (say, in terms of population, perhaps) than we currently have. But the current rate of growth in any case is probably unsustainable because of imbalances like co2 emissions. I do think it's feasible to change to renewable energy in the short term, if onl…

Diamond-based molecular nanotechnology, combined with fusion and high efficiency solar as sources of power will make all of our technology and infrastructure carbon sinks. By the end of this century I expect we will be concerned about CO2 going too low and causing a glacial period.

PS Mercury is too far in-system to be that useful. It takes less energy to get to/from the outer planets than it does Mercury. The cold traps on the poles are interesting though--mercury potentially has all the raw material needed for a self-sufficient industrial colony.

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