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The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

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Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#381

Post by lrvick »

ip_addr wrote: post #366
lrvick wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving ChromeOS devices to low tech users that cannot understand the privacy and lock-in risks feels like a tech version of giving kids cigarettes. It is simply unethical. The HN crowd can make informed decisions to give Google control of their entire digital lives but we should not make that choice for others. I would never recommend Windows or MacOS to anyone for similar reasons so those are not a comparison I care…

low-tech users don't care much for their privacy in my experiences. This may be due partially due to the lack of understanding, but also due to cultural differences different from the average hn user. The time needed to teach them how to use complicated security systems just isn't worth it for them most of the time. People have different priorities. Most people just want to use their computers as a utility or for pla…

If an oven leaked a lot of pm2.5 or Carbon Monoxide and it happened to still be legal, it would still be an ethical obligation for someone that is aware of these issues to recommend against that oven even if someone just wants the cheap/easy option and does not comprehend the risks.

Those that can comprehend significant technical risks are obligated to recommend a low-risk strategy until people have enough relevant understanding to take informed risks for themselves.

I would for instance never let a minor use apps like TikTok known to granularly monitor and sell their location and behavior to keep them maximally addicted and maximally profitable. If the user is an adult tech worker that understands how such apps work and has the means to actually understand the privacy policy... then I will find their choice stupid but it is their life.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#382

Post by isr »

aussiesnack wrote: post #311
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't.

Which means that Google can simply lock you out of your Chromebook, for entirely arbitrary (and not even necessarily disclosed) reasons, at any moment. There's no practical avenue of appeal - Google is vast and even governments have trouble keeping it to heel. Individuals have no chance against these obdurate nation-sized entities. I think any Chromebook purchase, beyond the most cheap and cheerful throwaway, would b…

Actually, I don't believe this is accurate.

There is a single "desktop" user on chrome os - 'chronos'. Even when you login with different accounts, everything is still running as chronos (id 1000).

What happens is that there are separate loopback filesystems, 1 per each "google account", all stored under /mnt/stateful_partition. These filesystems are encrypted (ecryptfs). When you login, the relevant filesystem is decrypted and bind mounted over /home/chronos.

All of this is done locally, no network queries involved. I don't think that you lose your local files if your google account is somehow borked. You just lose the online aspects of that.

But as a general rule, your overall point about not being too reliant on googlopoly is one which should be well taken.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#383

Post by pjmlp »

shams93 wrote: post #332
kelnos wrote: post #322

I hesitated posting this, because I don't want to be too negative, but: ugh. ChromeOS is just more Google adware/tracking-ware, locking people into the Google ecosystem, and (by default, at least) creating a more locked-down environment than a general-purpose OS would have (not quite iOS or even Android, but still not with the flexibility of a "mainstream" OS). I feel like Framework could be spending their time doing…

For android and web development with its matured linux subsystem it works really great, even audio/midi apps like reaper run as linux apps so its surprisingly powerful and of course a lot better than windows, on the right hardware it can be nicer than macos in terms of being open and able to code on it.

Given Android Studio's requirements of a gaming rig I doubt it works really great for Android development.

No Chromebook has the desktop class requirements to keep it happy running those Gradle builds.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#384

Post by pksebben »

jeffbee wrote: post #182
binkHN wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every other distribution is years behind Google in terms of tooling. Can you expand on this? Perhaps a URL with more detail?

I'm not sure if there are any single good URLs I can give you. The best way to learn is to read the chromiumos repo and see how they build the image, how they collect and deploy profiles, etc. You can also look at the mailing list of clang-built-linux to see how their kernel is built with clang and how they integrated that with their profile pipeline. In the end though it is cultural and not technical. Debian will be…

I'd just like to put a vote of confidence in for That Guy, I think we should absolutely have an option for them.

Which is a roundabout way of saying; it's critically important that we don't over-optimize for the central, happy path (just wanna browse securely on whatever hardware ya got). The most interesting things (and the most valuable) frequently come from the edge cases, which are absolutely supported by keeping an eye on the needs of "That One Guy". Unix interoperability has given us a bounty of awesome shit and I anticipate it will continue to do so.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#385

Post by javawizard »

kweingar wrote: post #371
wyldfire wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a fan of Linux and a fan of ChromeOS. but are the user experience and security better on ChromeOS than Linux? It's a bit simpler than linux but I'd say Linux is a close second.

(Disclaimer: I work on ChromeOS at Google) I would let anyone, even a total stranger, use my Chromebook in guest mode without a second thought (as long as I am reasonably sure they won’t steal it, break it, or disassemble it).

(Disclaimer: I also work at Google but not directly on ChromeOS.)

Exactly. I would never let my (non-tech savvy) grandparents near a Linux machine without supervision, but I wouldn't hesitate to let them near a Chromebook in guest mode.

Linux is quite secure in the hands of an experienced user. ChromeOS is secure in the hands of anyone who's not state sponsored attacker-adjacent.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#386

Post by EnKopVand »

dzikimarian wrote: post #150
nrp wrote: post #2

I'm happy to answer questions anyone has on this product!

First of all I'm very much on board with ideas behind framework laptop. Thanks for your work :-) Is there any roadmap for wider distribution in Europe? Especially eastern part.

I'll piggy bag this, and say "especially for the Scandinavian ISO keyboard" part.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#387

Post by Self-Perfection »

cowmoo728 wrote: post #362
wyldfire wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a fan of Linux and a fan of ChromeOS. but are the user experience and security better on ChromeOS than Linux? It's a bit simpler than linux but I'd say Linux is a close second.

I can't hand my non-technical family member a Linux device and expect it still work a week later without any intervention.

Do you have an example what might go wrong? I cannot imagine how can one mess up desktop Linux system without root privileges. Totally fill up the storage maybe?

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#388

Post by aussiesnack »

isr wrote: post #382
aussiesnack wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means that Google can simply lock you out of your Chromebook, for entirely arbitrary (and not even necessarily disclosed) reasons, at any moment. There's no practical avenue of appeal - Google is vast and even governments have trouble keeping it to heel. Individuals have no chance against these obdurate nation-sized entities. I think any Chromebook purchase, beyond the most cheap and cheerful throwaway, would b…

Actually, I don't believe this is accurate. There is a single "desktop" user on chrome os - 'chronos'. Even when you login with different accounts, everything is still running as chronos (id 1000). What happens is that there are separate loopback filesystems, 1 per each "google account", all stored under /mnt/stateful_partition. These filesystems are encrypted (ecryptfs). When you login, the relevant filesystem is de…

Interesting, thanks. That's something then - I don't know much about ChromeOS. I've considered it for parents, but in the end have opted for something modest running one Linux or another.

A true laptop-appliance with an immutable-ish OS, decent security and fast/easy updates is actually a quite compelling notion. I'd be pretty uncomfortable with it not being local-first for user data though.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#389

Post by pksebben »

aussiesnack wrote: post #341
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not going to comment much on how much of a risk it is to use a Google product in this way. Just going to say that ChromeOS is pretty much designed to work with Google's primary apps: GMail, Drive, Hangouts (or whatever it's called these days), etc. So my point is that if you want to stay out of the Google ecosystem, it wouldn't make sense to use ChromeOS in any case.

A willingness to selectively use the Google ecosystem, versus signing over your bare ability to even use a purchased general-purpose computing device entirely to Google's pleasure, are two distinctly different things though. I'm not making a 'Google is evil' argument (that would be a different conversation). I just couldn't bear to trust any corporation with that degree of arbitrary power over physical objects in my…

I'm with you. We're driving into the world of Snow Crash like Tina Belcher, and all I hear when folks talk about how marginally better for browsing these devices are is: "ehhhhhhhhhhhhh".

On a more specific (read: paranoid) note, these security chips give me the heebie jeebies. How long until I need to register a program hash with the FAANG-that-be just to run my own software?

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#390

Post by lhl »

stavros wrote: post #86
warent wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey there, just wanted to share my experience with you. I've used Macbooks for the past like 6 years for programming, after several jobs in Silicon Valley required it. Apple has been pretty much okay except for some key issues around memory consumption and overheating. After they hit a supply line issue earlier this year, I decided to try getting a Framework instead. Been using my Framework laptop for a month or so n…

Having just bought a Framework to replace my 5-year-old XPS, I really hope I have the same experience as you. Do you run Linux, by the way? I hope Linux support is good.

My Arch on Framework experience has been great. If you're just getting yours up and running, I've been keeping notes on tuning/setup: https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops/wiki/2022-Framework-Lapt...

Some people have been getting hard graphics lockups (seems to be an Intel 12th-gen GPU / GNOME issue that may be affecting more than just the Frameworks). I'm running Sway and have yet to have any lockups over a month and a half of usage, though. Here's the community discussion thread: https://community.frame.work/t/hard-freezing-on-fedora-36-wi...

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