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What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

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Re: What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

#41

"Post" crash? If you think what we've seen is the crash you have no idea what's coming.

Genuinely curious what you think crash means. 2021 definitely inflated our stock market way too much but we're definitely within reasonable corrected zone IMO. What should we expect as a crash? Even with the Great recession, we're looking at a 27% drawdown so we're about halfway there?

It's not over till people start giving up and cashing out. Right now, the retail investors are still frantically buying the dip. It's just the smart money that is getting out while the getting is good.

Look: right now the S&P500 and the Dow are still twice where they were in 2016, and the Nasdaq is almost 3 times. Even after the recent drop. Do we have double the population we did in 2016? Double the resources? Double the technology? If not then why is the stock market twice as high?

My guess is, (and it's only a guess): the nasdaq will bottom out around 5000, the S&P somewhere around 2000. The Dow in the neighborhood of 15k. That's assuming there are no financial collapses like in 2008.

But it will take years to get there.

Re: What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

#42
Hm. Thing is as profitable big tech companies get larger and the TAM of tech sectors grow it makes some sense that early stage valuations would increase.

This is both because there is more opportunity for a company to scale, but also because when you have several trillion dollar tech companies out there happy to acquire innovative tech companies then multi billion dollar exits become much more feasible. Companies like Microsoft are making close to $100b a year today and they have to put that money to work somewhere. Google's digital ad business was big relative to the size of the internet in 2010, but it was absolutely tiny in comparison to today. And it's not just the size of the digital ads market, but everything - digital audio/video content, ecommerce, hosting, social, productivity tools, etc. All companies operating in tech sectors today have far more potential than they did in 2010 if they execute well.

So no, in my opinion 20x EV/sales isn't that crazy for a good SaaS company. Profitable tech companies at scale with high gross margins typically trade at 5-10x sales because if you can achieve operating margins of say 30-40% (which isn't uncommon for SaaS companies) then you're basically trading at a 20-30x projected earnings multiple. Which yes is high compared to the historical market average (15-20), but if you're also growing at 50% YoY and have steady recurring revenue streams then that's not a hard multiple to grow into at all.

Perhaps what was stupid about 2020-2021 valuations was that a lot of investors assumed that the extremely low interest rates and accommodative monetary policy was going to persist. Some companies did trade at valuations very hard to justify without the low interest rates and pandemic-era tech growth rates (Zoom, Shopify, Peloton, etc).

I'm sharing because I seem to have a fairly controversial take on this and I don't know why. It seems to me everyone has just forgotten that companies like FB traded at sales multiples in the mid-teens for years after they went public and they haven't been bad investment at all. It depends on the company obviously, but a company growing at 50% YoY with 80% gross margins would be ridiculously cheap at a valuation any less than 10x sales based conservative earning projections.

In my opinion most of the reason for this crash is just macro headwinds. Tech companies saw a huge growth boom in 2020-2021 which has now reversed. Interest rate risks have also been dragging on public valuations and this caused a drop in sentiment for tech investments generally. My guess is that in a couple of years once we're through this period tech valuations will trend back to 2018-2019 levels. But I guess we'll see.

Finally this current crash is hardly isolated to tech. Companies like Fedex, Starbucks and Nike have all seen ~50% valuation declines from their peaks this year.

Re: What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

#44
post #3

> There is a LOT of money still sitting on the sidelines waiting to be deployed. And it WILL be deployed, that’s what investors do. Reminds me of the saying: "Venture Capital starts with too many good ideas chasing too little money, and ends with too much money chasing too few good ideas."

Broad markets will crash and LPs will ask for capital back. The overhang will drop without requiring investment.

i don't think it's that simple. pretty much every asset class posting shitty returns this year, hell even bonds are in a bear market. so institutionals are gonna look at other managers and see a bunch of red and not necessarily stop alt allocations.

it's also relevant that you can't just ask for capital back as an LP. it's committed to a fund. you can not commit to another one but the price of much greater returns in alt assets is much lower liquidity.

Re: What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely curious what you think crash means. 2021 definitely inflated our stock market way too much but we're definitely within reasonable corrected zone IMO. What should we expect as a crash? Even with the Great recession, we're looking at a 27% drawdown so we're about halfway there?

It's not over till people start giving up and cashing out. Right now, the retail investors are still frantically buying the dip. It's just the smart money that is getting out while the getting is good. Look: right now the S&P500 and the Dow are still twice where they were in 2016, and the Nasdaq is almost 3 times. Even after the recent drop. Do we have double the population we did in 2016? Double the resources? Doubl…

> Do we have double the population we did in 2016? Double the resources? Double the technology? If not then why is the stock market twice as high?

One easy answer is that the "value" of a dollar is half what it recently was. And that seems to hold fairly true whether you want to use that dollar to buy groceries, a house, a hotel room or a share of a company.

If I measure my investments not in dollars but in say, days of vacation (so hotel, food, gas/airfare, tickets to things, etc) then my S&P500 investment is about where it was in 2016.

Re: What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

#46
post #33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citrix in bond trouble? Time to start buying corporate bonds. Edit: Yup, Apollo and Elliott bought in huge. Wow, debt looks super attractive.

Can you two (@azlyrics, @fny) expand on this - or point to a topical article? When I first saw this @azlyrics comment was dead and I'm wondering what the fuzz is.

Citrix was struggling to borrow $4Bn for a leveraged buyout, they issued bonds that effectively yield 10% annually. That's a massive return we haven't seen forever in fixed income.

Re: What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

#47
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going in the other direction, we’re 11% above the pre-COVID high for the S&P. And that’s with $6+ trillion dollars having been pumped into the economy. There’s plenty of crash and plenty of inflation left in the pipes.

Would you consider it a crash if S&P was just flat for a decade?

You are misunderstanding "flat for a decade". Flat for a decade is decided in retrospect. It's not flat along the way. Flat for a decade very likely means way down from here right now.

Re: What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

#48
post #24

"Post" crash? If you think what we've seen is the crash you have no idea what's coming.

Ah! It seems your crystal ball is working better than mine. Could you tell me how you know a bigger crash is coming?

This is the least clever take that gets repeated to death by people who are 100% sure they are being very clever.

I guess all of those billionaire investors are total idiots thinking about the future without crystal balls.

Yes, please give me your misunderstanding of EMH to prove to me I'm wrong. I'll wait.

Re: What Does the Post Crash VC Market Look Like?

#50

The recent (since the 80s) history of financial ups and downs has been - savings and loan - junk bond - dot com / financial engineering (Enron) - mortgage backed securities - VC Basically, money chases outsized returns, some new thing emerges to satisfy the demand, it becomes effectively a ponzi / house of cards, it falls apart, we shift to the next thing. It's impossible to predict when and what will happen of cours…

I'd argue that crypto fits that bill more than VC.

Crypto has a lot of retail suckers and speculators to pump and dump on, unlike private markets.
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