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Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

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Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#51

Post by sokoloff »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #46
edent wrote: post #23

HR always say "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." That is, in my opinion, a cop out. I've worked for brilliant managers in great teams - and left because the business wasn't able to support my growth. Or because the company was ethically dodgy. Or because they just couldn't pay enough. And, yeah, sometimes I've left because of a bad boss or grim team members - but that's been a rarity. But, at the end of…

I think that's said because your immediate manager is whom is responsible for you, your growth, your performance, clearly a path for you, etc. Chances are good they participated in the decision to hire you. That is, pretty much everything you mentioned - in the context of a team / company - traces back to your manager (directly or indirectly). Perhaps some of your managers weren't as completely good as you think? Tha…

While it’s not 100.00% true, I’ve found it a helpful lens to take the line of thinking that I am responsible for me, for my growth, for my performance, and for parts of [clearing] a path for me.

Putting the primary onus on someone else is an error that sub-optimizes your results. If your manager won’t do their minor part while you do your major part, you need to leave, but taking this lens makes that apparent much sooner than waiting for them to “grow you”.

No one is more interested in your career than you.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#52

Post by redeyedtreefrog »

I personally think one of the biggest reasons behind this is that staff are generally not incentivised in any way to be collaborative or helpful. Managers and leaders have their performance judged on things like:

* how well personally connected they are too senior management staff (often based on length of time at the company)

* how many metrics and graphs they produce for senior management to give an appearance of measurable and controlled productivity

* how good they are at giving presentations to senior management that sell what the team is working on

* enthusiasm for talking in meetings in general

Then people in non-leadership positions are judged on how much they please the middle managers and team leads with things like:

* enthusiasm for being talked to and managed in meetings

* enthusiasm for JIRA and producing metrics

* maintaining slow but predictable productivity, gradually but persistently working through piecemeal JIRA tickets

Certain teams at certain companies hire on the basis of collaboration skills and technical ability rather than fitting into a corporate hierarchy, but such teams are extremely competitive and way beyond my resume and my level of knowledge. For about the 3rd time in 15 years I'm about to take an extended break from the industry. I guess I'll have to come back again sooner or later though, because I don't know how to do anything else.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#53

Post by edent »

barrysteve wrote: post #48
edent wrote: post #23

HR always say "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." That is, in my opinion, a cop out. I've worked for brilliant managers in great teams - and left because the business wasn't able to support my growth. Or because the company was ethically dodgy. Or because they just couldn't pay enough. And, yeah, sometimes I've left because of a bad boss or grim team members - but that's been a rarity. But, at the end of…

What do you mean, a job can be meaningless? Nihilist by day, family man by night? Come on.

Sometimes a job is just a job. It puts bread on the table. Nothing more.

Most people aren't working on something they care about.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#54

Post by edent »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #46
edent wrote: post #23

HR always say "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." That is, in my opinion, a cop out. I've worked for brilliant managers in great teams - and left because the business wasn't able to support my growth. Or because the company was ethically dodgy. Or because they just couldn't pay enough. And, yeah, sometimes I've left because of a bad boss or grim team members - but that's been a rarity. But, at the end of…

I think that's said because your immediate manager is whom is responsible for you, your growth, your performance, clearly a path for you, etc. Chances are good they participated in the decision to hire you. That is, pretty much everything you mentioned - in the context of a team / company - traces back to your manager (directly or indirectly). Perhaps some of your managers weren't as completely good as you think? Tha…

Nah. When a company says "The training budget this year is zero" - it doesn't matter how good my immediate manager is. They can't fix that for me.

That's not me leaving a manager. That's the job abandoning me.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#56

Post by orev »

edent wrote: post #23

HR always say "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." That is, in my opinion, a cop out. I've worked for brilliant managers in great teams - and left because the business wasn't able to support my growth. Or because the company was ethically dodgy. Or because they just couldn't pay enough. And, yeah, sometimes I've left because of a bad boss or grim team members - but that's been a rarity. But, at the end of…

“Leaving the manager” is often associated with people leaving because of frustration or other dysfunction. If you’re looking for growth or more pay, that’s fine, but for most people they’re happy to stay in a place that respects and values their opinion/work, even if they’re not getting top dollar. A bad manager is what drives people to the “final straw” that motivates them to look for something else.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#57

Post by badpun »

> having yet one more of these days where I'm measuring how much time I am in my current company to see if I'm ok to start looking.

Hah, for me that's most days Mon-Fri. But not to start looking, but just quit and take some time off. I just can't brainwash myself to like (or even tolerate) paid work.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#58

Post by badpun »

barrysteve wrote: post #48
edent wrote: post #23

HR always say "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." That is, in my opinion, a cop out. I've worked for brilliant managers in great teams - and left because the business wasn't able to support my growth. Or because the company was ethically dodgy. Or because they just couldn't pay enough. And, yeah, sometimes I've left because of a bad boss or grim team members - but that's been a rarity. But, at the end of…

What do you mean, a job can be meaningless? Nihilist by day, family man by night? Come on.

90%+ of people don't care about their jobs (60%+ of them actively dislikes them IIRC), are they all nihilists in your book?

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#60

Post by treis »

smcl wrote: post #13
tomcam wrote: post #11

If it’s always the people… it might be you.

If it's always everyone else then it might be OP, but it'd be unfair to assume that. It's possible they've worked in a few teams of 10-15 people of which a couple were disruptive enough in some way that it was easier to move than to try to confront them or otherwise resolve it somehow

I'd argue that's still them if they can't resolve conflicts. I can think of only a couple people in my career that have been irredeemably difficult to work with. If OP keeps finding them they're either very unlucky or part of the problem.
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