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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#241

Post by Beltalowda »

KingMob wrote: post #55
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good. That’s absolutely not the rule and neither you nor Carlsen get to decide that. There is no permissiveness here. Hans has played according to the rule of the tournament. There is no evidence of cheating. That’s it. Unless you have proof of what you are advancing, you…

He's admitted to cheating in the past. The Bayesian priors for him currently cheating are not the same as for other people.

> He's admitted to cheating in the past.

From what I can find: "he did admit that he had cheated in the past – first as a 12-year-old when a friend gave him some help in an online tournament and then as a 16-year-old playing unrated games while he was streaming."

A 12-year old cheating in a tournament! We cannot ever trust this man!

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#242

Post by vlovich123 »

kamaal wrote: post #231
kurupt213 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why even begin the match? The story would hold a lot more water if he boycotts from the outset

Just a guess may be Carlsen set the whole thing up. Like make a move and see if the opponent makes a move that could only be recommended by a chess engine. Do it in your preparation time and see this. Like in your preparation you make an opening move and see what move the engine makes in response. Now do this in your live game and see if the opponent made the very same move. If they do, this confirms cheating. In thi…

Literally every GM (including Magnus) will have studied all the possible moves a computer will make for the first N moves to memorize what the optimal move/response is etc.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#243

Post by Moodles »

kamaal wrote: post #231
kurupt213 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why even begin the match? The story would hold a lot more water if he boycotts from the outset

Just a guess may be Carlsen set the whole thing up. Like make a move and see if the opponent makes a move that could only be recommended by a chess engine. Do it in your preparation time and see this. Like in your preparation you make an opening move and see what move the engine makes in response. Now do this in your live game and see if the opponent made the very same move. If they do, this confirms cheating. In thi…

There’s absolutely no way this is the case.

Chess GMs at Magnus and Hans’ level wouldn't even need to cheat on every move and certainly not on any opening where something like the first 20 best moves are all memorised. These guys would only need the engine to tell with them one or two moves per game to pretty much always win.

Why did Magnus start the game and then resign? Maybe he thought it would make a statement. Maybe he needed to technically show up to the game to avoid a penalty.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#244

Post by sebzim4500 »

KingMob wrote: post #55
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good. That’s absolutely not the rule and neither you nor Carlsen get to decide that. There is no permissiveness here. Hans has played according to the rule of the tournament. There is no evidence of cheating. That’s it. Unless you have proof of what you are advancing, you…

He's admitted to cheating in the past. The Bayesian priors for him currently cheating are not the same as for other people.

Fair enough but those priors should also be updated by a lot of evidence showing that he probably isn't cheating over the board:

* His blitz/rapid ratings went up just as much as his classical ratings. Cheating in OTB blitz is much harder, so you would expect his blitz rating to stay roughly the same if his recent rise was due to cheating.

* Ken Regan is generally the most trusted authority of cheating detection (you can find his papers online, his methodology is rigorous), and he says there is no evidence of Hans cheating OTB.

* AFAIK no strong player has described the game between Hans and Carlsen as suspicious. Even the (increasingly rare) ones that are fully on Magnus' side.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#245

Post by davidguetta »

kurupt213 wrote: post #227
davidguetta wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Karpov said he played badly in the Sinquefield game. Personally I think Hans didn't cheat in this game ...... but: my best theory is that Carlsen is afraid to play against people who HAVE cheated once, because there mere thought that he COULD be cheating right now is enough to derail him from clear thinking. I think this because it's exactly what he declared in an interview ABOUT cheating on 2021. So basically h…

So why even begin the match? The story would hold a lot more water if he boycotts from the outset

Because its more within the rules to resign than to withdraw in their contract probably

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#246

Post by vintermann »

davidguetta wrote: post #214
wheresmycraisin wrote: post #99

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

Even Karpov said he played badly in the Sinquefield game. Personally I think Hans didn't cheat in this game ...... but: my best theory is that Carlsen is afraid to play against people who HAVE cheated once, because there mere thought that he COULD be cheating right now is enough to derail him from clear thinking. I think this because it's exactly what he declared in an interview ABOUT cheating on 2021. So basically h…

In Go, (and in competitive Starcraft, I've noticed) they talk about "overplay", making a move that's trying to claim too much, biting over more than you should be able to chew. And if you spot it, and are good enough, you can "punish" an overplay. If you are playing with a handicap, you have to make overplays, and hope your opponent can't punish them. As the weaker player in a handicap game you know this, but you face a constant dilemma: do you think you know how to respond and punish, or do you play carefully, sacrificing a little of the edge of your handicap? What's best depends a lot on your confidence in your own strength.

Now in Chess, it's much harder to see what's an overplay or not, especially for us who aren't GMs. But the basic thing exists, it exists in all games. Players still have to make decisions about whether to concede a little of their edge (it starts off with white, but can change across the game) with a safe move, or go for a potentially risky counter.

Now imagine what suspectimg your opponent might on decisive moves have engine help, does with that dilemma.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#247

Post by mach1ne »

EGreg wrote: post #234
kamaal wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a guess may be Carlsen set the whole thing up. Like make a move and see if the opponent makes a move that could only be recommended by a chess engine. Do it in your preparation time and see this. Like in your preparation you make an opening move and see what move the engine makes in response. Now do this in your live game and see if the opponent made the very same move. If they do, this confirms cheating. In thi…

One opening move can’t possibly confirm cheating since the opening moves played by the best chess engines are also the same moves played by the vast majority of human players.

But if there is no obviously desirable move, and instead a wide array of potential equally good moves, then picking the same as the computer picked gives a high probability of cheating. That being said, I find it unlikely that that's the case here.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#248

Post by a_bored_husky »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #239
CydeWeys wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

What does the expression "over the board" mean?

Face to face.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#249

Post by [deleted] »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #239
CydeWeys wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

What does the expression "over the board" mean?

[deleted]

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#250

Post by mach1ne »

vintermann wrote: post #149
addicted wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carlsen had no problem playing Hans in the Meltwater championship weeks before the Sinquefeld cup. He had no issue playing Hans in the Sinquefeld cup. Until he lost to Hans. It’s also important to note that Magnus has still not actually accused Hans of anything. He’s letting insinuations, innuendo and Twitter imaginations run wild do all the work for him.

He's lost to weaker players before. He's lost to younger players before, and praised them. He's lost longer streaks. He's lost with white in such situations too. He's even lost to Hans before, with white, in the game where Hans infamously said "The chess speaks for itself". And he didn't immediately withdraw from Sinquefield. Hans' postgame comments, where he made an odd claim about preparation, came in between and m…

This is the most enlightening comment I've read about this case.
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