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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#141

I don't follow chess. I've heard of Carlsen in passing but that's about it. As far as I can make up from this story, Niemann admitted to cheating online as a child (not exactly uncommon) but as of yet there's not an ounce of proof that he cheated against Carlsen. What I don't understand is that people just take Carlsen's side without any proof. Some guy beat Carlsen so he must be cheating? What kind of reasoning is t…

People have done copious analyses of his game with Carlsen and found no evidence of cheating. And analyses of his tournament play the last two years have also not turned up anything suspicious, suggesting his meteoric rise in rating has been genuine.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, when it's something that's unprovable (if done well enough), reputation can play a role, esp. if it's golden boy v.s. admitted past cheater. And Carlsen didn't technically accuse him and Niemann is not technically on trial, so "innocent until proven guilty" is irrelevant. Magnus's goal seems to be to get Niemann disinvited from tournaments. He's taking such drastic measures for a reason at the expense of his own…

You definitely don't have to trust his judgment. People change, he could be paranoid at the moment for all we know. Magnus should explain his actions to the organisers and the public, or just not enter tournaments.

His biggest challenge is next generation of younger prodigies like Pragg. He clapped at the end of their game in appreciation of Pragg. He's not paranoid about being usurped and knowing him through the years, he is going to take that as a challenge.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#143

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

What? Just because of reputation? What are you even talking about... Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? The burden of proof is on the accuser. We should be shown evidence, or Carlsen should apologize.

> What? Just because of reputation? What are you even talking about...

Is this a troll or some kind of rhetorical question? OP explained exactly his reasoning and clearly they said it was because of reputation.

> Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"?

It is not a court and Hans is not being tried on criminal charges, so what does that have to do with anything? Legal systems also have other standards for evidence such as balance of probability.

> The burden of proof is on the accuser. We should be shown evidence, or Carlsen should apologize.

What exact accusation did Carlsen make? A verbatim quote with complete context will be sufficient.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#144
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But online blitz chess when you're 16 is not "part of a professional competitive career".

Chess.com put out a statement refuting Hans' claims that he only cheated twice and Hans has not responded yet.

Chess.com ( magnus carlsons sponser) put out a statement refuting Hans' claims that he only cheated twice and Hans has not responded yet.(and chess. com have yet to show any evidence of said cheating)

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#145
post #8
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who’s never been able to appreciate or follow sports where a machine can be an order of magnitude better than a human, I would genuinely like to understand why people are enamored about such sports. In the end it seems like brilliant minds lost in math that’s not even novel anymore.. again everyone should do what they please, but this is just an academic question from someone unable to appreciate such skil…

Would you say it doesn't make sense to appreciate art because cameras exist? Actually, with the advent of image generating AIs, such questions become more relevant.

Imagine a book, a ballet choreography, a movie entirely conceived and produced by an AI, which we collectively regard it as "art". Also imagine that, barring evidence of how the work was done, it is impossible for humans to distinguish if the work of art was produced by a human or an AI.

Why should we, as "appreciators/consumers" of this art, care about how it was done? Do we think that a drawing made with the help with a computer "less artistic" than one drawn on paper?

Also imagine that this AI is friendly and superhuman, and it is established that its works are aligned with our interests. All "art" produced by this AI inspires us to be better version of ourselves and enlighten us to help us solve our conflicts. In this scenario, why should we care about the work of one particular human vs another?

The point that I am trying to make is that chess is already a reduced version of this hypothetical. Those that care about chess as a game will have little to learn by looking at humans. Those that want to improve their own game will do it by playing against/studying/interacting with the advancements in computers. There is very little left room for humans by themselves to show any new development in the game. As such, it seems to me that the ones interested in events related to human players are those who worry more about measuring humans against each other than in the game itself.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You definitely don't have to trust his judgment. People change, he could be paranoid at the moment for all we know. Magnus should explain his actions to the organisers and the public, or just not enter tournaments.

His biggest challenge is next generation of younger prodigies like Pragg. He clapped at the end of their game in appreciation of Pragg. He's not paranoid about being usurped and knowing him through the years, he is going to take that as a challenge.

No post body was provided.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#147

I love what Magnus is doing. Of course can't accuse Hans of cheating, because AlphaZero works much more similar to humans than alpha-beta search. The article shows the amount of pressure tournament organizers are putting on him, but nowdays the money is in streaming more than in tournaments.

No post body was provided.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#148
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, people who do do deceitful stuff - steal, lie and cheat - act quite predictably when confronted with their allegations: 1. I didn't cheat! 2. Ok yeah I cheated those times but I never did it again 3. GOTO 1 It seems we've gone through this cycle once already - where Niemann has admitted that he was caught cheating on two occasions in the past. And now chess.com are saying actually he has cheated mor…

This is exactly how it works. It's disappointing how many ifs and buts people are giving him just because they don't particularly like Carlsen. It really shows. Cheaters are serial cheaters, and they will deny deny deny. The problem is really that he has admitted to cheating more than once. There is a reason why sports and just about everything else employs zero-tolerance policies: It doesn't just happen once.

It can though. Kids can be young and make stupid mistakes.

I'm not saying that is what happened here - I really don't follow chess enough to have an informed opinion on this specific case.

However I object to the blanket opinion that there aren't people who cheated once and absolutely regretted it and never did it again, especially kids, especially online.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#149

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

Carlsen had no problem playing Hans in the Meltwater championship weeks before the Sinquefeld cup. He had no issue playing Hans in the Sinquefeld cup. Until he lost to Hans. It’s also important to note that Magnus has still not actually accused Hans of anything. He’s letting insinuations, innuendo and Twitter imaginations run wild do all the work for him.

He's lost to weaker players before. He's lost to younger players before, and praised them. He's lost longer streaks. He's lost with white in such situations too.

He's even lost to Hans before, with white, in the game where Hans infamously said "The chess speaks for itself".

And he didn't immediately withdraw from Sinquefield. Hans' postgame comments, where he made an odd claim about preparation, came in between and may have been a factor.

Remember, Chess is a LOT about preparation these days, and Carlsen was also at one point #1 fantasy football player in the world. He probably knows a thing or two about applied statistics. Even overlooking the specifics, he wouldn't get as far as he has if he wasn't pretty good at keeping his frustration at losing from influencing his judgments.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#150
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good. That we have this bizarre attitude of permissiveness and time salvation around cheaters in competition is frankly bizarre. What other argument is there than to refuse to engage. It is not difficult to simply never cheat, in the same way that it is not difficult to simp…

> If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good Yeah, justice! If you steal something once in your life, straight to jail, for good. If you have a speeding ticket, no more driver license for the rest of your life. After all, people don't change, any mistake in life should be fatal and destroy your entire future.

Great comparisons. Lance Armstrong has not been allowed to cycle to the grocery store a well
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