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Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

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Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#21

Post by barrysteve »

xcambar wrote: post #16
BaudouinVH wrote: post #10

There is a saying in HR "People join companies. They leave managers." #my2cents

I've heard that as well, but that leaves me uncertain. A good manager can only do so much. When the company despises its workers or is reluctant to expenses or hirings or reorg or... I'd prefer to say "people join companies, they leave because of management", which points fingers a little less to the direct manager and a bit more to the whole org tree. Note: I'm a manager, maybe I'm just protecting myself and my own…

Well the employee's relationship with the whole org tree is pinned to the manager. That's kind of the point.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#22

Post by ThePadawan »

tomcam wrote: post #11

If it’s always the people… it might be you.

On the other hand - if it's always the people, that means that the people are the biggest (only?) thing OP is struggling with. And that even the smallest remaining problem still fills the remaining mental space, suddenly becoming the biggest problem in the room, no matter its size.

For me personally, that's how my brain works. Sometimes I need to realign and discover that just because all the "9/10" (in terms of difficulty) problems and 7/10 problems have been solved, the 2/10 problem isn't that bad, just because it's now the worst problem at hand.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#23

Post by edent »

HR always say "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." That is, in my opinion, a cop out.

I've worked for brilliant managers in great teams - and left because the business wasn't able to support my growth. Or because the company was ethically dodgy. Or because they just couldn't pay enough.

And, yeah, sometimes I've left because of a bad boss or grim team members - but that's been a rarity.

But, at the end of the day, a job isn't your life. You don't need to find meaning there - you don't even have to like your co-workers - as long as you have a life outside of work.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#24

Post by thebeastie »

Perhaps you’re not a team player?

(This is aimed at programmers)

Being a programmer is hard in that respect. There are many professions and positions where the individual has much more autonomy over their part. A typical setup in a small company may have a team of programmers and many other positions which are a team of one; graphic design, legal, HR, business dev, etc etc. Sure, all of these can grow into teams at some point but most jobs in programming mean being part of a team, which means being able to compromise (sometimes even when it’s BS) and gain the favor of your peers.

Team programmers are not sought out based on their sense of artistry, by that point the job is basically a grind.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#25

Post by pflenker »

Yes and no. It's the system in which people act (which, in turn, is created by people). For example, I once left a company where people were discussing endlessly, passionately and often by yelling at one another. On the surface, I left the company because of the people, but in reality, it was the fact that there was no clarity about who is able to take which decision and the fact that the CEO, who wanted to be treated as an equal, still was able to overrule every decision, that created this toxic environment in the first place.

Many of the people in that company would probably be fun to work with in a different environment.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#26

Post by jiggywiggy »

It depends on what you mean with it.

In the end an organisation is made out of people, and yeah people are then naturally the problem.

It sounds like you get into conflicts sooner or later, and this is what gets to you.

I've also people been slowly suffocated by non-conflict, so it's not always the assholes. Often burn-out, from what I've personally seen is mostly the pressure people put on themselves. Although this is anecdotal.

But back to you it could be you've been exclusively working in companies with high stress environment, for instance agencies. Stress brings out more anger in people.

Out of the 6-7 teams i've worked in in the last decade, there were a few conflicts but none ended in it, and except for one all got resolved.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#27

Post by noufalibrahim »

Always is a bit of a stretch but I'd say it is the overwhelming major reason.

The specifics of the work (whether you code in X or Y etc.) might affect you but that's dependent on your personality and even then not to a big degree.

People on the other hand are much more intense. They can make things much better or much worse. They can also amplify or attenuate good things. e.g. It's hard to enjoy working on your favourite language/technology when you have to pair program with an annoying engineer with a micromanager looking over your shoulder. It's much more pleasant to code in a language that you're not particularly fond while pairing with an intelligent and interesting colleague.

The final line is the people themselves and that can be improved a little through hiring practices. However, an active effort to keep the company culture "good" is also necessary and that has to come from the top.

Reminds me of a blessing from an old boss of mine "May all your problems be technical." Those are the easy problems to solve.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#28

Post by teraku »

edent wrote: post #23

HR always say "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." That is, in my opinion, a cop out. I've worked for brilliant managers in great teams - and left because the business wasn't able to support my growth. Or because the company was ethically dodgy. Or because they just couldn't pay enough. And, yeah, sometimes I've left because of a bad boss or grim team members - but that's been a rarity. But, at the end of…

I believe your overall statement is true, but that doesn't mean "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." is wrong.

I have left jobs because I had a shit manager, but he was enabled by a shit company culture. My teams were mostly great, the tasks were okay. It might have been time to move on regardless, but the biggest reason was shitty managers and shitty company culture.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#29

Post by bsenftner »

I believe the cause of the dysfunction in our tech industries is the complete lack of any professional communications training in the software/engineer education. How many times are you in a meeting were no one is listening to the speaker, they are simply waiting to speak? How many times are you encountering useless documentation, pep-talks, and other developers you have a hard time communicating? Our industries are over run with the frustrations caused by poor communicators and the confusion that causes.

Re: Ask HN: It's always the people isn't it?

#30

Post by ianai »

It’s people, but also their separate egos being incentivized separately. If people could see their ego tied with the well being of others many things would be different. But that would (reductively) require positive sum games/competition. Like that moment in “Beautiful Mind” where Nash sees all those equations and has an epiphany about cooperation in the bar scene.

This can be done. But it requires a community effort and “community policing” for people instilling zero sum/negative sum mindset into the community. But instead of prison or a negative giving them the opportunity to change.

I’ve actually been wondering whether employee owned corporations and other cooperatives address this “naturally” or not.

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