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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#91

Post by nextlevelwizard »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #84
tromp wrote: post #23

Applying sound statistical methods to thousands of Niemann games, cheating expert Ken Regan finds no evidence of cheating [1]. > The verdict > Dr. Regan analyzed all of Hans Niemann's games over the last two years, including online games, such as played on Chess.com and their events, and his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. The wide range of results in a bell curve, with some go…

How can one even cheat in chess? When I was a kid we used to distract the opponent and move some figures as he didn't watch. Apparently this is not the case but I can hardly imagine another way.

There are these things called chess engines - current best is called Stockfish - which calculate the best possible move in any given situation.

To cheat in chess you input the current state of the game and you get the best possible move out.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#92

Post by rendall »

kareemsabri wrote: post #22
cupofjoakim wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many ways. You need outside help for everything though - you need someone to input the current board state into some kind of chess engine, and then relay the best possible move back to you somehow. There have been cases where someone has hidden a phone in the bathrooms to use for either communicating or inputting into a chess engine themselves. In Niemanns case people have joked about vibrating anal beads c…

Wow, this goes deep!

Well done!

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#93

Post by dane-pgp »

morelisp wrote: post #73
dane-pgp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Carlsen doesn't know who to blame. He could suspect Niemann, or someone on Niemann's team, or someone in his own team, or a backdoor in Stockfish, or (depending on Carlsen's own mental health right now) space aliens. I can understand that out of an abundance of caution (and on the advice of his lawyers) he doesn't want to name anyone in particular, although seeing so many fingers pointed at Niemann (understanda…

If there's any cheating, how could Niemann himself not be involved?

Someone on Niemann's team could have been feeding him info which "coincidentally" happens to be very useful, without Niemann suspecting where the info came from. (A bug in Carlsen's hotel room?)

Someone on Carlsen's team could be encouraging him to focus on lines which they've discovered (through a bug in the hotel room) that Niemann's team is preparing counters for.

In both of these cases, the corrupt team member could be motivated by the possibility of winning a large bet on the outcome of the chess match, without either player being in on it.

(I admit that the idea of Stockfish giving deliberately bad information only to Carlsen, to weaken his prep, is not very plausible, but we don't know how rational Carlsen is being here).

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#94

Post by ycombinete »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #83
tibbar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a strong point in Hans's favor, and Regan is very reputable, but he's also going against the Chess.com team (and Hans himself!) in claiming that he finds no evidence of Hans cheating *online* either.

I think the important bit is the "last two years". Niemann has admitted cheating like 5-6 years ago.

2-3 years ago* when he was 16, he is now 19.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#95

Post by fileeditview »

FooHentai wrote: post #29
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why people are going out their way to justify Carlsen attitude. What we have is the world champion throwing a tantrum because he lost against a player there is absolutely no evidence has cheated against him and is now calling for him to be expelled despite having no evidence whatsoever. This is harassment pure and simple. The whole thing is disgraceful and reflects extremely badly on competitive ch…

I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good. That we have this bizarre attitude of permissiveness and time salvation around cheaters in competition is frankly bizarre. What other argument is there than to refuse to engage. It is not difficult to simply never cheat, in the same way that it is not difficult to simp…

I am absolutely not decided on the issue but you should always remember that the "guy" caught cheating was 12 and 16 when it happened.. I mean he was a kid. Kids do stupid things. So we should not overrate what happened in the past.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#96

Post by CydeWeys »

tibbar wrote: post #2

For context, Magnus withdrew from a major tournament last month after losing to Hans. He has not made a statement, but it is understood that he suspects Hans of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating online, though he denies cheating in person. As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's…

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.)

This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#97

Post by smcl »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #12
tibbar wrote: post #2

For context, Magnus withdrew from a major tournament last month after losing to Hans. He has not made a statement, but it is understood that he suspects Hans of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating online, though he denies cheating in person. As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's…

> As more evidence comes out I haven't seen evidence of Neumann's cheating, as is claimed in this comment. Only allegations, which do not look very strong to me.

In my experience, people who do do deceitful stuff - steal, lie and cheat - act quite predictably when confronted with their allegations:

1. I didn't cheat!

2. Ok yeah I cheated those times but I never did it again

3. GOTO 1

It seems we've gone through this cycle once already - where Niemann has admitted that he was caught cheating on two occasions in the past. And now chess.com are saying actually he has cheated more times than that, so we're seemingly going through this cycle at least once more: https://twitter.com/chesscom/status/1568010971616100352

This is very feelings-based but as an outsider who doesn't really play Chess and can't evaluate what happened on the board, it certainly doesn't look good. He's at very least been quite dishonest

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#98

Post by jeroenhd »

I don't follow chess. I've heard of Carlsen in passing but that's about it.

As far as I can make up from this story, Niemann admitted to cheating online as a child (not exactly uncommon) but as of yet there's not an ounce of proof that he cheated against Carlsen.

What I don't understand is that people just take Carlsen's side without any proof. Some guy beat Carlsen so he must be cheating? What kind of reasoning is that? Surely the hyper-analytical chess community can provide some kind of statistic to prove that he cheated in the match against Carlsen? A comparison with Stockfish and friends in various combinations, perhaps? _Something_ more than "he beat the best of the best that one time therefore he's a cheating liar".

Until Carlsen and his friends can provide proof of cheating, I can only conclude that Niemann is now the superior chess player. He has now beaten Carlsen twice; once for real, once by Carlsen's resignation.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#99

Post by wheresmycraisin »

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a graduate student of plagiarism... even if chess cheating isn't very provable, I have to take Magnus seriously and give him a giant benefit of the doubt, he's earned it.
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