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Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

wsj.com

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Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#141

Post by camillomiller »

colordrops wrote: post #139
Radim wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Did you mean to end in "/s" for sarcasm? Armenia was the very first country in the world to adopt Christianity, and is officially Christian to this day. As for "non white"… do you know where the term "Caucasian" comes from? You may not consider Armenians "our people", that's your call. But you don't get to hide behind Armenia's religion or ethnicity.

The fact that racist comments like the grandparent are getting a pass here on HN is sickening. "They are not the same because they aren't white and christian". My comment that yemeni and ukrainian lives are of equal value got downvoted. I even here these sorts of comments from close friends. "We should care about Ukraine because they are 'like us'". WTF do you mean "like us"? I have more relatives near Yemen than Ukr…

Did you even try to read my comment? I’m saying that is the sentiment and the reason why there’s too different reactions. OF COURSE the value of life is equal, but in Europe we see Yemen and we see a far away land that is culturally far. We see Ukraine and we see our neighbors and history. No justification for the different feelings, just a very simple explanation.

Maybe you get downvoted because you’re confrontational and can’t seem to properly understand what you read?

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#142

Post by todorus »

mellavora wrote: post #87
dijit wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure it’s as cut and dry as that. I flew from Munich to Copenhagen on Friday with Lufthansa. I was on an aisle seat and was deadlocked twice while leaving the plane, there were also people crowding the luggage conveyor belt, which is why those examples come to mind. It’s not about cheap vs expensive or culture vs nature: humans have the capacity to be altruistic, but it seems quite common to be selfish.

no, it is exactly culture vs nature. we can cultivate a high trust society in which altrusism is the norm, or we can cultivate a low trust society where selfishness is the norm. I chose the airport examples to match the parent observations. I've seen other examples, for example driving patterns. I remember the one summer (actually about a 2 week period) when Minnesota when from "almost no-one cuts in line to get off…

"The famous Marshmallow Test. Do the kids have high trust or low trust in the authority figure to give them 2 marshmallows?"

Not a good example as those were about the child having the discipline to wait the needed time for the second marshmallow. Trust wasn't measured. You can argue that the kid needs trust to get to the discipline part, but then you're not talking about that experiment anymore, and the burden of proof increases significantly.

Also it has been debunked as an indicator of discipline and later succes in life, and has now become a famous example of the reproduction problem psychology is reckoning with. I would just generally stay away from it to proof a point. It will only weaken your position if someone familiar with it.

Sorry for being off topic here, but it's popular use is starting to irk me

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#143

Post by colordrops »

camillomiller wrote: post #141
colordrops wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that racist comments like the grandparent are getting a pass here on HN is sickening. "They are not the same because they aren't white and christian". My comment that yemeni and ukrainian lives are of equal value got downvoted. I even here these sorts of comments from close friends. "We should care about Ukraine because they are 'like us'". WTF do you mean "like us"? I have more relatives near Yemen than Ukr…

Did you even try to read my comment? I’m saying that is the sentiment and the reason why there’s too different reactions. OF COURSE the value of life is equal, but in Europe we see Yemen and we see a far away land that is culturally far. We see Ukraine and we see our neighbors and history. No justification for the different feelings, just a very simple explanation. Maybe you get downvoted because you’re confrontation…

You said they are not comparable. What does that mean? Skin color and religion are superficial differences when it comes to death and suffering.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#144

Post by emptysongglass »

llampx wrote: post #137
emptysongglass wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had quite the opposite experience working with Ukrainians as peers at my last company: I find them much like other Europeans. I very much care about their welfare and have given much of my own money to support them. I have offered my own apartment for shelter. If you don't want to care about them that's fine but please do not project your lack of empathy to others as to what this really is about.

Just an observation: both of your experiences can be true, as you have personal experience with Ukrainians in real life and GP has experience online via video games.

Yes, but splitting the difference should never be to become numb or indifferent to the tragedy happening daily to these people. This person had some bad experiences online gaming with people they somehow identified as Ukrainians from Ukraine and that suggests what exactly? That the rest of us are virtue signaling because of their bad experience?

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#145

Post by moistly »

mellavora wrote: post #87
dijit wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure it’s as cut and dry as that. I flew from Munich to Copenhagen on Friday with Lufthansa. I was on an aisle seat and was deadlocked twice while leaving the plane, there were also people crowding the luggage conveyor belt, which is why those examples come to mind. It’s not about cheap vs expensive or culture vs nature: humans have the capacity to be altruistic, but it seems quite common to be selfish.

no, it is exactly culture vs nature. we can cultivate a high trust society in which altrusism is the norm, or we can cultivate a low trust society where selfishness is the norm. I chose the airport examples to match the parent observations. I've seen other examples, for example driving patterns. I remember the one summer (actually about a 2 week period) when Minnesota when from "almost no-one cuts in line to get off…

And how do you cultivate a high trust society? I’d argue: “propaganda” — aka publicly-funded social-positive television (TikTok?) videos like Sesame Street; pro-social school/classroom programming; worker safety standard posters and helpline numbers; a ton of messaging about how to behave and how to expect others to behave, about safety, about support, about good decisions (buckle up!), etc.

We have to invest in our society.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#146

Post by LudwigNagasena »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #127
thrown_22 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans slept quite soundly for 40 years when it was Muslims being killed for oil. Give it one good cold winter and Ukrainians will also become sub-humans.

> Europeans slept quite soundly for 40 years when it was Muslims being killed for oil. This is simply not true. When Bush decided to invade Iraq, there were biggest anti-war protests in European (and possibly world) history, gathering millions (not thousands) of people in practically all major European cities. It was wrong then, it is wrong now. We didn't "sleep quite soundly." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_…

What did those protests achieve?

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#147

Post by eurasiantiger »

dang wrote: post #135
mellavora wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hmm, an instant reply, from a newly created account, leading with a patently false accusation followed by extreme examples which don't match reality. yes, looks like typical move of Russian-sponsored actors. Thanks, redscareone, that's exactly the kind of proof my argument needed.

It's against the HN guidelines to post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how bad their comments are. We've banned that troll account, but we also ban accounts that break the site guidelines in the way you just did, so please don't do it again. " Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mist…

>we’ll look at the data

Just to check, did you look at the data in this case?

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#148

Post by dang »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #147
dang wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's against the HN guidelines to post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how bad their comments are. We've banned that troll account, but we also ban accounts that break the site guidelines in the way you just did, so please don't do it again. " Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mist…

>we’ll look at the data Just to check, did you look at the data in this case?

Yes.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#149

Post by jack_pp »

emptysongglass wrote: post #144
llampx wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an observation: both of your experiences can be true, as you have personal experience with Ukrainians in real life and GP has experience online via video games.

Yes, but splitting the difference should never be to become numb or indifferent to the tragedy happening daily to these people. This person had some bad experiences online gaming with people they somehow identified as Ukrainians from Ukraine and that suggests what exactly? That the rest of us are virtue signaling because of their bad experience?

The comment I replied to implied Ukrainians are "our" people. I don't think most of Europe thought of them like that before the west pushed their narrative and brought them to the attention while vilifying Russians. You have more sympathy for them compared to the average EU citizen that has never interacted with them because.. well you interacted with them and you had a positive experience. A lot of people make friends in the workplace and that affected you directly which I understand and I'm not saying you specifically are virtue signaling. But how many people are in your position and aren't just reacting to what the media is telling them?

I just don't see why I personally would have more sympathy for Ukrainians than the other countless people who are at war all over the world and have been at war constantly for decades. I understand caring more about this war because it's near the west and there's a chance it triggers WW3 but I believe most people, especially US citizens only show sympathy because of their party affiliation or to virtue signal or because if you don't you'll get ostracized etc.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#150

Post by enjoy-your-stay »

goatsneez wrote: post #29
actionfromafar wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, many other HN comment sections on this topic have discussed exactly these questions, including the history of the current energy mix.

Im sure there were, however, from my point of view it seems (and Im not trying to fight that, just observing) the collective "mania" and false logic predicated on tribal mentality of emotions (for emotions can be controlled unlike reasoned populace) is thoroughly hammered into the populace . So, any thread, as you point out, has the nearly identical tones, emotions, and false claims.

People are tribal and emotional about the invasion of Ukraine principally because they see that Russia is a bully, and people naturally revile bullying - even to the point that their creature comforts might be a bit disturbed when confronting the bully.

I see that as a good thing.

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