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Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

wsj.com

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Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#131

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

ptr wrote: post #118
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a war. What did you expect exactly? Now that the Ukrainians are taking back territories I fully expect the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual. Wars are disgusting affairs. You can’t base your analysis on the reported exactions committed by one side. That’s just setting you as an easy target for propaganda.

1. You're contradicting yourself: in your third point, you say that I shouldn't trust that civilians are getting murdered, raped and tortured. But in your first point, you say that I should be expecting such behavior. 2. I'd expect there to not be a war to begin with. Russia 100% controls this, and can stop whenever they want. 3. War doesn't have to be done in the most brutal way possible. 4. "the purging related sto…

I never said that you shouldn’t trust that civilians are being raped, tortured and murdered. They most definitely are. That’s the reality of war. It’s always brutal. There is no such thing as a clean war.

I said focusing on that makes you analysing conflicts poorly and expose you to be manipulated. I am most definitely not pro-Russian. I am very much pro the interests of my own country first however.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#132

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

samus wrote: post #97
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wants to take back Crimea. I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population. I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of go…

Any outcome that doesn't discourage Russia from just trying again is obviously bad for the Ukrainian population in the long run. Peace talks before serious Ukranian progress at retaking Crimea would also just be a repetition of previous attempts to resolve the issue and appease Ukraine and the West while pursuing a completely different agenda.

Discouraging Russia and retaking Crimea are unrelated goals.

I don’t foresee Ukraine getting back Crimea ending well for the population of Crimea. Let’s not forget Crimea has tried to be independent since 1991 and Ukraine had to send its army there in 1995. I don’t think a peaceful reintegration is possible.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#133

Post by diimdeep »

ptr wrote: post #119
diimdeep wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depends who you ask: Well, you will hear some opinion, based on some perspective. Almost always it is not whole truth, but a subset of facts. But there is so much more at play. What bothers me is how western news manipulative and no one really notice. News giving everyone a subset of facts, while omitting others, not painting the entire truth. They are not lying, but at the same time manipulate opinion of a large p…

What important piece of the puzzle are western media omitting that makes this not a war between Russia and Ukraine? What is the whole truth, according to you? Ironically, you're the one omitting right now.

I can only recommend doing your own research, cross language barrier, examine the situation from as many points as possible, we have all the tools to do this. I do not feel comfortable here anymore to discuss this because of downvotes.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#134

Post by thrown_22 »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #127
thrown_22 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans slept quite soundly for 40 years when it was Muslims being killed for oil. Give it one good cold winter and Ukrainians will also become sub-humans.

> Europeans slept quite soundly for 40 years when it was Muslims being killed for oil. This is simply not true. When Bush decided to invade Iraq, there were biggest anti-war protests in European (and possibly world) history, gathering millions (not thousands) of people in practically all major European cities. It was wrong then, it is wrong now. We didn't "sleep quite soundly." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_…

Why did you think I was talking about Middle Eastern Muslims and not African Muslims?

Just look at French involvement in Africa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_involving_Fran...

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#135

Post by dang »

mellavora wrote: post #77
redscareone wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

hmm, an instant reply, from a newly created account, leading with a patently false accusation followed by extreme examples which don't match reality. yes, looks like typical move of Russian-sponsored actors. Thanks, redscareone, that's exactly the kind of proof my argument needed.

It's against the HN guidelines to post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how bad their comments are. We've banned that troll account, but we also ban accounts that break the site guidelines in the way you just did, so please don't do it again.

"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#136

Post by enjoy-your-stay »

bakuninsbart wrote: post #76
Klaster_1 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue reduced dependency on natural resource export could benefit russian economy in the long term because it undermines current regime, the root cause of the lack of growth during the last decade.

I don't think a different regime would have fundamentally acted differently. Russia is too big to be in the EU (Germany and France would never allow it), and too small to be a 'nice' player next to super powers. Animosity towards Russia from the side of eastern Europe was always high, and the US kept using Russia as a useful boogie man, while China is a double-daggered partner. Russia never had a lot of options, and…

Russia as it currently is, is a massive and diverse country with many talented and artistic people. It could take any number of courses, and act in many different ways to be a better world citizen, but it hasn't. Russia had, and still has many many options, but somehow seems stuck in a downward spiral of trying to throw its weight around the world whilst simultaneously casting itself as a perpetual victim.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#137

Post by llampx »

emptysongglass wrote: post #47
jack_pp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but I share a border with Ukraine and unless you're close to the border to maybe interact with them more I'm not sure many in my own country would feel kinship with them. We're more concerned that the war is on our doorstep. I can assure you this is how most of my country feels. There are some that are virtue signaling and are very active in their support for Ukraine on social media but I've met enough peop…

I've had quite the opposite experience working with Ukrainians as peers at my last company: I find them much like other Europeans. I very much care about their welfare and have given much of my own money to support them. I have offered my own apartment for shelter. If you don't want to care about them that's fine but please do not project your lack of empathy to others as to what this really is about.

Just an observation: both of your experiences can be true, as you have personal experience with Ukrainians in real life and GP has experience online via video games.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#138

Post by llampx »

fabian2k wrote: post #39
misja111 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Only 46% of Germans want to stick to the plan of not using gas from Russia's new Northstream 2 pipeline when things will get more tough in the winter: https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/forsa-blitzumfrage-... Most of the proponents of giving in to Putin's tempting offer are coming from the right populist AFD party or from former East Germany.

I think the following poll is more relevant here: https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/220715-politbarometer... https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/politbarometer-union-... 70% say that we should still support Ukraine even with high energy prices. And this value is stable so far. The Nordstream 2 issue is more complex, and I don't think the people answering the poll fully understand it. I also don't know how exa…

Germans think that they are rich enough to save the world. The same thing was visible in 2015 during the refugee crisis. The problem this winter may be not enough gas, and the high gas bills for the gas that we do use, will hit next year.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#139

Post by colordrops »

Radim wrote: post #43
camillomiller wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

> Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Did you mean to end in "/s" for sarcasm? Armenia was the very first country in the world to adopt Christianity, and is officially Christian to this day. As for "non white"… do you know where the term "Caucasian" comes from? You may not consider Armenians "our people", that's your call. But you don't get to hide behind Armenia's religion or ethnicity.

The fact that racist comments like the grandparent are getting a pass here on HN is sickening. "They are not the same because they aren't white and christian". My comment that yemeni and ukrainian lives are of equal value got downvoted. I even here these sorts of comments from close friends. "We should care about Ukraine because they are 'like us'". WTF do you mean "like us"? I have more relatives near Yemen than Ukraine. People bleed and suffer everywhere.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#140

Post by kthejoker2 »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #18
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

> He doesn't know Europeans at all. A few days ago I walked past very loud protests of people demanding peace and good relationships with Russia, in Vienna.

If I have learned anything about the last 6 years of listening to the increasingly unhinged contigent of paranoid Americans, it is not to overindex on how loud a position is.
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