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An X11 apologist tries Wayland

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361–370 of 453 posts

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#361
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's me, 3 years ago, complaining about the exact same bug: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21248799 pretty sad to see that absolutely nothing has changed.

No one fixes the bugs because they’re not interesting. It’s why I’m now a mac user.

I think “not interesting” is an understatement. Making changes in OS project can be downright abysmal - lack of coherent structure, little to guidance, or even hostility toward contributions…

It’s certainly not entirely because of the attractiveness of the problem itself.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#362
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big misunderstanding. Network handling is stripped from the core design, but is very much available on all compositors. The equivalent to X11 forwarding is waypipe[1], which is far superior to X11 forwarding. Rendering happens entirely on the host and clients can therefore use accelerated resources as they wish, and the (accelerated) h264 encoded buffer feeds means much lower network utilization. 1: https:/…

Low network utilization yes and perhaps superior to X11 core protocol, but it doesn't come for free, for example in terms of latency. And what if said app was actually a video player in it own self? Then you get to decode the video on server and re-encode it again for transport, whereas a primitive-centric protocol could allow decoding the original video directly on the client. The higher the window size the higher t…

> Low network utilization yes and perhaps superior to X11 core protocol, but it doesn't come for free, for example in terms of latency.

You can have your cake and eat it too: You can disable the compression if it's a problem. It's highly configurable if you want to play with it.

The compression means trading a little bit of hardware resources at either end for a better UX (lower latency, higher throughput).

> The higher the window size the higher the requirements for the encoder (though Waypipe does say "This way, Waypipe can send only the regions of the buffer that have changed relative to the remote copy.", or is it talking about the video encoder?).

The core wayland protocol mandates communicating which parts of a "surface" (read: window) has changed when a new buffer is submitted in a "surface commit". Neither a compositor nor waypipe will do anything if nothing has changed.

> I also think that just "forget about it, we'll video stream it" is just giving up on the problem altogether.

Each surface has its own stream, and is updated independently. E.g., a video player on a webpage will generally be a subsurface, a context menu or plugin is a popup surface. They're all processed independently, with each their own damage tracking (and if applicable, video compression). If content is stretched or scaled up, only the original source buffer will be transmitted, allowing the display server to take care of this.

This is not giving up, this is the maximum effort, optimal implementation.

> I just fondly remember the times when (possibly two decades ago) I run ... over a 100Mbit network

For reference, a single 4k 60Hz display takes ~15Gb/s to keep fed with bitmaps. Even a quarter of the screen takes 3.7Gb/s. Not even cinematic refresh rates would be able to fit within a 1Gb/s line.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#363
Perhaps a minor nitpick for most of the people, but for me a big problem with X11 was that hotkeys fire on key-down, not on key-up. Because of this, you cannot really use Ctrl+Shift to change input languages - it interferes with another hotkeys which start with Ctrl+Shift+...

The response on X11 bugtracker from ~2007 was "xkb is old, we don't want to touch it, let's see if any alternatives will fix it in the future". I hoped so much that Wayland would fix that... but no.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#364
post #352
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoever wants to sabotage the Linux Desktop, or more precisely a community developed Linux Desktop. The biggest sponsors of GNOME are IBM and Google. Who knows what their agenda ist.

You’re right, IBM & Google have teamed up to brainwash and secretly hire all the OSS developers for GNOME. Their goal is to stealthily undermine the Linux Desktop by implementing other half baked OSS tech in place of currently broken OSS tech, all while the public is bamboozled. /s just in case…

Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from conspiracy.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#365

From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wayland "The X11 protocol was designed around running graphical apps across the network. While some people use this feature, it's far from common. Wayland drops this requirement as a way to greatly simplify its architecture." X client and server are usually the same machine, but they don't have to be. While on the road, you can use your notebook to open a Gimp session on your home machine…

It's in the "critical path" for certain niche applications. I do HPC operations, and every now and then, I run across some (usually commercial) scientific software application whose installer and/or configuration manager is a GUI. I am not sitting in front of the cluster head-node, I am ssh'd in to it.

With X, I can just go ahead and fire up the GUI, and it will appear. Maybe a bit laggy, but as long as its only one application, it's usually good enough to complete the task I need to complete.

With remote work and thin pipes, it's laggier, but "xpra" also allows per-application X forwarding, and removes a lot of the lag.

Of course I could set up full VNC and set up a whole desktop environment on the cluster head node, and remote into it, and maybe in the glorious Wayland future, I will have to do that.

Sometimes when I talk about this, someone in the comments says that Wayland is working on some kind of per-application forwardability -- that would be nice if it's true.

I get that my use-case is niche, and so I don't expect it to be a high priority for the devs, but it's one of those things that, once in a while, is a critical link in my administrative workflow, and I'm not looking forward to the eventual kludging of workarounds.

Edited to add: I have now seen the comment below about "waypipe", this sounds very promising!

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...? the bugreport you pasted seem to have been fixed and merged 3 years ago. The vast, vast, vast majority of the apps i use daily don't do any GPU rendering, just plain classic widget-based productivity apps

Sorry, I didn't clarify. The bug was fixed with some use of pixmaps, in other situations it's still broken. It sounds like the vast majority of apps you use are very old. Even plain productivity apps benefit from GPU rendering. If they don't it's because those apps are far behind, compare to things like Electron apps where everything has been GPU accelerated for quite some time because of Skia.

I find electron apps absolutely horrendous to use. The apps I use most are Zim, QtCreator, Strawberry, and the KDE apps: Okular, etc. - most of the time when I remote ssh it's for pavucontrol-qt, dolphin (the file manager) or mainly the app I develop, https://ossia.io (for instance for working on a show that is taking place over a raspberry pi). None of those force any kind of GPU rendering.

Also apps that do gpu rendering make my laptop really heat up and loose battery quickly compared to when it's not in use - I don't use a compositor partly for this (+ the occasional frame lag)

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#367

From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wayland "The X11 protocol was designed around running graphical apps across the network. While some people use this feature, it's far from common. Wayland drops this requirement as a way to greatly simplify its architecture." X client and server are usually the same machine, but they don't have to be. While on the road, you can use your notebook to open a Gimp session on your home machine…

>> X client and server are usually the same machine, but they don't have to be.

When I was in college there were rooms full of X-terminals which would be used to remote into various bigger workstations. You could also sit locally at one of those machines, but plenty could be done over the network and by more people on lower cost hardware.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#368
post #86
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. It's possible in both KDE and Sway. GNOME is probably worst DE imaginable. After 20 years, they still don't have thumbnails in filepicker and even dropped preview side pane in GTK4. I can't even.

With X11, I can change scroll speed using the `imwheel` tool. Years ago with Ubuntu and ElementaryOS, I could change it in the system settings GUI. Today, with Wayland now default, I can't change it at all when running Ubuntu or ElementaryOS. You can say this is a GNOME problem, or a distro problem, or whatever. But at the end of the day, I installed two of the most popular Linux distro's out there and my scrolling i…

[deleted]

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#369
post #352
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoever wants to sabotage the Linux Desktop, or more precisely a community developed Linux Desktop. The biggest sponsors of GNOME are IBM and Google. Who knows what their agenda ist.

You’re right, IBM & Google have teamed up to brainwash and secretly hire all the OSS developers for GNOME. Their goal is to stealthily undermine the Linux Desktop by implementing other half baked OSS tech in place of currently broken OSS tech, all while the public is bamboozled. /s just in case…

As somebody who witnessed the whole Microsoft "Helloween Documents" leak at the time I can assure you all kind of psyops are being pulled inside the more or less completely naive FOSS community.

The observed practices outlined in the Helloween Documents were a "crazy conspiracy theory" first as well. Until it turned out to be a very real conspiracy.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#370
post #7

I recently tried switching to Linux with a few different distro's (Ubuntu, Elementary OS, etc.) and use Wayland. The thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me, and which I've been unable to solve, is that apparently it's not possible to configure trackpad scroll speed. At all. From what I was able to gather, Wayland/libinput say they shouldn't be responsible for handling it and instead window managers should[0][1…

With X11 it's quite simple to change all possible trackpad options through a single text file with libinput e.g.

    cat > /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/40-libinput.conf 
For a full listing of options:

    man libinput
The same driver is used for wayland but I don't know how you configure it there, it will no doubt be possible to do something similar with a single text file config.

I think the problem is that most UI tools like gnome settings do not expose the full range of possibilities because it's too much effort.

[EDIT]

Ouch, so i'm wrong, there is no equivalend in wayland. I know wayland has no concept of a display server but this really sucks for configurability [0]:

> For Wayland, there is no libinput configuration file. The configurable options depend on the progress of your desktop environment's support for them; see #Graphical tools.

This means there is no built in way to configure libinput without your DE/WM supporting it or other tools like libinput-config as the sibling comment points out.

[0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Libinput#Configuration

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