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An X11 apologist tries Wayland

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Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#341

Post by drdec »

fsckboy wrote: post #276
skykooler wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this works increasingly poorly as most desktop environments and software assumes there is no network involved (for example, last time I tried running Firefox over a forwarded X session I got a bunch of errors about a broken GL context). And you can do the same thing, with usually better results, by using VNC instead (and there are indeed VNC servers for Wayland, for example wayvnc).

I'm not sure what experience you're describing, for me the real crime trying to run a remote Firefox over a forwarded X session is that it figures out you're doing that and instead decides to run another window of your local Firefox instance. It's been like that a few years now. I can't imagine what they're doing under the hood, haven't looked into it, but it sure is irritating.

It's not detecting that you are trying to run remote. That's just the default behavior of the firefox command, to use the running instance of there is one. IIRC, there is an option you can pass on the command line to get around it.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#342

Post by simiones »

kelnos wrote: post #172
emidoots wrote: post #7

I recently tried switching to Linux with a few different distro's (Ubuntu, Elementary OS, etc.) and use Wayland. The thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me, and which I've been unable to solve, is that apparently it's not possible to configure trackpad scroll speed. At all. From what I was able to gather, Wayland/libinput say they shouldn't be responsible for handling it and instead window managers should[0][1…

I would think that's a toolkit (GTK, Qt, etc.) issue, not a window manager (well, in Wayland parlance, compositor) issue. The apps just get the scroll events from libinput, and it's up to them to decide how much/how fast to scroll based on what it sees. It's the same argument that the libinput author makes about why libinput doesn't implement kinetic scrolling, and that it's the job of the toolkit. Only the toolkit k…

And yet, in every other OS, scroll speed is a global setting, potentially with per-app overrides. No user in their right mind will configure a different scrolling speed in each and every app they use - they will have a preferred scrolling speed, and at most a handful of apps where they want custom behavior (e.g. scrolling in a game will probably require completely different precision than day-to-day, or perhaps a CAD tool).

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#343

Post by mwcampbell »

bsder wrote: post #138

For starters, I do agree that the X11 model is fundamentally broken on the modern computing platform. However, sadly, I'm beginning to think that Wayland has made some fundamental architectural choices that are not fixable and are also broken on the modern computing platform. The biggest problem is that Wayland takes the "compositor" route and turns it up to 11. Unfortunately, nobody does multi-window compositor to a…

> "Everybody Wants To Rule the Event Loop" by "Tears for Engineers"

Damn, now I'm going to have to think of some lyrics and record that song.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#344

Post by tannhaeuser »

dotancohen wrote: post #334
tannhaeuser wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what are you using or recommending? Recently switched to kubuntu from gnome-ubuntu, and while some pain points have gone away (lack of global menu can partially be kindof mitigated, didn't have to fiddle with touch acceleration like on 20.04), I'm not impressed: middle-click gets in the way a lot and can't be switched off, power mgmt tray is lagging badly behind power events, weird dock preview and not-so-great ap…

> middle-click gets in the way a lot and can't be switched off, What do you mean by this? What happens when you middle click, that you don't want or expect to happen? > not-so-great app switching How do you like your app switching? I agree that the default isn't great, but in System Settings you can tweak it beyond all reason. I can help if you tell me what you want. > FF crashing I haven't had that happen. What addo…

Half of the time I want to press right-click or even left-click on the touch pad it actually registers as middle-click which is very annoying as it means a window gets closed rather than focussed; don't want middle-click at all. Undesired Middle-click-paste also happens a lot.

When I click a link from Thunderbird (weirdly as it sounds when Thunderbird is a Mozilla app) it opens chromium; dialog to set FF as default doesn't change this.

I need to retest and maybe reconfigure app switching from a (vertical) dock as you say; just doesn't feel fluent as it is.

Occasional FF crashing should probably be addressed at Moz. Maybe it's because FF on gnome gets more usage and testing. Btw, does SuSE (or Manjaro) still have a global-menu patch for FF because kubuntu (understandably) doesn't maintain such patches?

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#345

Post by sprash »

yunohn wrote: post #339
jshdheoshso wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> it's an infiltrated project. By whom… exactly?

Whoever wants to sabotage the Linux Desktop, or more precisely a community developed Linux Desktop. The biggest sponsors of GNOME are IBM and Google. Who knows what their agenda ist.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#346

Post by jorvi »

jshdheoshso wrote: post #332
gpm wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. Which in turn is the biggest problem with wayland. We are fragmenting the ecosystem with every window manager dealing with shared problems in their own custom way, because wayland only takes responsibility for a tiny fraction of the common things that every window manager does.

Quoted post unavailable.

> silly things … integrated menus on the window title bar

You do realize this is one of the most lauded OS X features ever?

It makes it so that whatever program your are using, you never have to dig in 4 places to figure out where the Settings or Print menu is.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#347

Post by sylware »

From a programming point of view, do not make one of the biggest mistakes of x11: keep wayland code statically linked, do not create zillions of client libraries and then depends on their ABI. Wayland is so simple anyway, that would be kind of ...

The only "fake" exception is xkb, since it is not part of wayland, client-side keyboard key symbol resolution has to go thru libxbkcommon ABI because you don't know where the data files are, unless a standard environment variable is defined, and you cannot be sure the format of those data files would be working with your code, unless the format and file hierarchy of those data files is simplified and posix-ized/iso-ified for forever namely _without_ versioning.

Since I play games on elf/linux, my main issue is the steam client without wayland support, not even a wayland->x11 fallback (they don't even have a vulkan->GL->CPU fallback, not to mention the 32bits code...)

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#348

Post by kaba0 »

dotancohen wrote: post #336
kaba0 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no wayland.exe, it is a protocol.

But there is an implementation - to that GP was referring.

No, there is Gnome’s, KDE’s, Weston’s (the reference), and Sway (wlroots)’s implementation.

This latter is pretty much a library to build your own de with minimal code up on top.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#349

Post by simion314 »

slimsag wrote: post #86
wooque wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. It's possible in both KDE and Sway. GNOME is probably worst DE imaginable. After 20 years, they still don't have thumbnails in filepicker and even dropped preview side pane in GTK4. I can't even.

With X11, I can change scroll speed using the `imwheel` tool. Years ago with Ubuntu and ElementaryOS, I could change it in the system settings GUI. Today, with Wayland now default, I can't change it at all when running Ubuntu or ElementaryOS. You can say this is a GNOME problem, or a distro problem, or whatever. But at the end of the day, I installed two of the most popular Linux distro's out there and my scrolling i…

>You can say this is a GNOME problem, or a distro problem, or whatever. But at the end of the day, I installed two of the most popular Linux distro's out there and my scrolling is literally unusable

You chose GNOME , the answer is you are not the target of the GNOME project, they target people with weak minds that would instantly faint if they see a configuration screen with options. So you are using it wrong, with GNOME you bend your mind and body to work as the GNOME self proclaimed UX experts think things should work.

If you decide you want options try KDE, but you are free to complain about GNOME, it will be a waste of time, reality and rationality do not affect people with giant EGOs in power at GNOME.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#350

Post by radlad »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #344
dotancohen wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> middle-click gets in the way a lot and can't be switched off, What do you mean by this? What happens when you middle click, that you don't want or expect to happen? > not-so-great app switching How do you like your app switching? I agree that the default isn't great, but in System Settings you can tweak it beyond all reason. I can help if you tell me what you want. > FF crashing I haven't had that happen. What addo…

Half of the time I want to press right-click or even left-click on the touch pad it actually registers as middle-click which is very annoying as it means a window gets closed rather than focussed; don't want middle-click at all. Undesired Middle-click-paste also happens a lot. When I click a link from Thunderbird (weirdly as it sounds when Thunderbird is a Mozilla app) it opens chromium; dialog to set FF as default d…

I don't use KDE or Wayland - I use awesome-wm with X11. I don't get a lot of Firefox crashes but one odd behavior I have noticed is that sometimes, after closing all Firefox windows, the firefox process continues to run (unresponding) in the background.

When this occurs, clicking links results in no browser windows opening. At this point I run `killall -9 firefox` and oddly, in that very moment, the link I clicked will open up in Chromium.

No idea why this happens.

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