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An X11 apologist tries Wayland

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Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how our networks have gotten relatively much slower. When X11 was designed and for a long time afterwards, networks were fast enough. But now end user networking performance has plateaued much earlier and faster than computing power and app bandwidth requirements. 100M became the norm in the mid 90s, 1G in the mid 00s, but there was no 10G norm in 2010s or 100G norm in 2020s, we're still at almost th…

I think it has two reasons, first the price of the hardware required to do these speeds (plus the cable requirements + range limits), and WiFi. These slowdown is offset by improvements in video and audio codecs, transparent compression and better static compression formats. So, having 100mbps WAN connection at home is arguably provides more utility than having 100mbps 5 years ago. Unless you do professional photo/vid…

The price of hardware is a red herring. All the other ethernet hardware was also pricey at start and then with volume became cheap. The cost and volume normally develop hand in hand (into opposite directions).

And yes, our apps adapted to working with less bandwidth. We don't know what kind of apps and computing we would have in the alternative universe where the norm would have been 10G connections 10 years ago.

For example lots of P2P stuff has been badly hampered by performance problems resulting in the centralization of the net in hands of big players.

There are lots of hard problems resulting from bad connectivity that result in big $$ tech funneling traditional net uses onto their services, by investing engineering efforts (and complexity) into heroic engineering feats to work around the bad connectivity. The complexity means high barrier to entry to compete with them. Codecs yes but also clever distributed caching, cloud storage, UIs that predict what the user does next, video calls have to go through corporate encoding/multiplexing proxies instead of p2p, file sharing has to be of the hard "sync most likely needed needed files" variety with proprietary server side smarts, instead of just "mount remote share", etc.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#252

From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wayland "The X11 protocol was designed around running graphical apps across the network. While some people use this feature, it's far from common. Wayland drops this requirement as a way to greatly simplify its architecture." X client and server are usually the same machine, but they don't have to be. While on the road, you can use your notebook to open a Gimp session on your home machine…

As someone who used to run actual X terminals, diskless purpose built appliances that only ran the X server, I'd say this only really worked on a LAN.

It never actually worked "on the road".

VNC and windows remote desktop was always better.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#253

Is there a single Wayland supporter who finds the user experience to be better than X11? Because my understanding of Wayland is that the only people who want it are gui devs.

Wayland is just way smoother in every interaction, even on a low-end intel iGPU-only laptop.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#254

From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wayland "The X11 protocol was designed around running graphical apps across the network. While some people use this feature, it's far from common. Wayland drops this requirement as a way to greatly simplify its architecture." X client and server are usually the same machine, but they don't have to be. While on the road, you can use your notebook to open a Gimp session on your home machine…

You don't loose anything.

Open up gimp remotely on the road, try it. It isn't usable ny any stretch of imagination.

That is why we need hacks such as x2go to make it usable.

Even the worst RDP solution is orders of magnitude better in performance than X11.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#255

Can someone explain to me why Linux users seem to like arguing about purely technical pieces of their system like the init manager or the compositor as if it significantly affected them? It’s something I have always found strange.

It's far from purely technical. Wayland destroys backward compatibility, destroys everything we knew about the graphics subsystem, offers to work with graphics in a different totally new way which results in a ton of concessions. A lot of Linux users do not use either Gnome or KDE and outside these two DEs, Wayland is a total PITA to use. I'd say it's just broken.

This is the extremist take without any nuance that causes these flamewars without any good reason. Nothing factual, just hearsay dramatized to the max.

Wayland is backwards compatible, it literally has XWayland which is a completely transparent way of running any X application (with the caveat that these X apps can see each other, so not all of the positives of wayland apply).

Wtf, graphics subsystem? Wayland implementations use the standard kernel DRM interface - if anything xserver was always a red herring here with proprietary blobs for nvidia being part of the program itself, instead of being a separate driver.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#256
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also use Gimp via a RDP or VNC session, which will give much better performance on low-bandwidth connections, since those protocols do damage detection, only sending updates of what's changed, and (lossy) compression. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the whole X11 is network transparent thing worked great when apps used the X11 drawing primitives. These days a significant number of X11 apps jus…

Very much this. Running the X11 protocol over the network is usually not a good idea anymore. By the way, does anyone know of a VNC-like solution that can use MPEG compression? Also, VNC could be better if it could increase the quality of parts of the screen once they stop updating. E.g. in TigerVNC setting a low bitrate doesn't improve the quality of text once the text stops changing.

XPRA uses H.264, PNG or JPEG compression. Chrome Remote Desktop will use VP9 these days.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#257
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could even watch a Youtube video through it. Watching a Youtube video on remote X is rarely a problem, there's no latency involved.

Wat?

I guess GP meant input latency (since there's no input if you're just consuming a video stream).

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#258

Is there a single Wayland supporter who finds the user experience to be better than X11? Because my understanding of Wayland is that the only people who want it are gui devs.

Yes, the fact that mixed DPI display actually works properly on my laptop and desktop is a massive user experience improvement that overshadows all the downsides.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#259

From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wayland "The X11 protocol was designed around running graphical apps across the network. While some people use this feature, it's far from common. Wayland drops this requirement as a way to greatly simplify its architecture." X client and server are usually the same machine, but they don't have to be. While on the road, you can use your notebook to open a Gimp session on your home machine…

I think that is a great feature. I'd also like to see how often it is used given today's workflows.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#260
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could even watch a Youtube video through it. Watching a Youtube video on remote X is rarely a problem, there's no latency involved.

Wat?

Streaming is most sensitive to how much data you can push through the pipe in a given amount of time, not to how long it takes for a question/answer pair to travel between the server and the client.

Latency (how long it takes for messages to travel back and forth), which is where X11 over the network has major issue, doesn't matter in the specific case of watching a video.

Essentially, once you press 'play', there's just a torrent of data flowing down from the server to the client with very little need for two-way banter between the machines.

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