Is there a single Wayland supporter who finds the user experience to be better than X11? Because my understanding of Wayland is that the only people who want it are gui devs.
An X11 apologist tries Wayland
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Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#132Is there a single Wayland supporter who finds the user experience to be better than X11? Because my understanding of Wayland is that the only people who want it are gui devs.
There seems to be an effect here where if GUI devs are developing new stuff on Wayland, eventually it will be the better UX.
Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#133Is there a single Wayland supporter who finds the user experience to be better than X11? Because my understanding of Wayland is that the only people who want it are gui devs.
I don't know whether you would call the author a supporter yet, but from the article, with respect to an issue that matters for gamers:
"And now you have done something X11 cannot do - eliminated screen tearing with the absolute minimum latency cost possible.
"This [is] fantastic.... And like, this is the first time I’ve ever seen the vsync setting in a game actually sync the game up with the vblank interval in a way that matters. It works for games in wine. It’s amazing. I have never experienced gaming on Linux that looked this smooth in my life."
Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Very much this. Running the X11 protocol over the network is usually not a good idea anymore. By the way, does anyone know of a VNC-like solution that can use MPEG compression? Also, VNC could be better if it could increase the quality of parts of the screen once they stop updating. E.g. in TigerVNC setting a low bitrate doesn't improve the quality of text once the text stops changing.
> Running the X11 protocol over the network is usually not a good idea anymore. It works well, though, and I'm not really interested in hearing that my own experience with it working well is a lie or some trick. Wayland gives up some things, and pretending that those things have no value isn't going to convince those of us who know they do. Also, those of us who use non-mainstream window managers (such as Window Make…
TBH This response is way too aggressive for the original comment.
The facts stated are simply that today it is more efficient to encode video for remote graphical sessions because the X11 applications already changed a long long time ago to adapt to the modern world of GPUs and accelerated compositing. BW, latency, efficiency, everything became better because a super computer with thousands of cores can do that and lighten the load on the CPUs.
It doesn't say it doesn't work... It doesn't prevent you neither from running X11 or even booting up a PDP-11 if this is your favorite workflow!
Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm able to set the trackpad speed in both GNOME and KDE on Wayland with libinput. In GNOME, it is under Settings > Mouse & Touchpad > Touchpad Speed. In KDE, it is under Settings > Input Devices > Touchpad > Pointer speed. Do these settings not show up for you?
They're talking about scroll speed, not cursor speed. When using those high precision touchpads where you can scroll pixel by pixel (so not line by line scroll wheel emulation), it's impossible to configure the speed of that scrolling in GNOME, and on a whole lot of systems, it's insanely sensitive.
Ok, I see the problem. I had expected the scroll and cursor speeds to be linked, but they apparently are not. For users who prefer slower scroll speeds, I understand how this can be frustrating.
Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#136Is there a single Wayland supporter who finds the user experience to be better than X11? Because my understanding of Wayland is that the only people who want it are gui devs.
There seems to be an effect here where if GUI devs are developing new stuff on Wayland, eventually it will be the better UX.
[deleted]
Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#137No post body was provided.
Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#138For starters, I do agree that the X11 model is fundamentally broken on the modern computing platform.
However, sadly, I'm beginning to think that Wayland has made some fundamental architectural choices that are not fixable and are also broken on the modern computing platform.
The biggest problem is that Wayland takes the "compositor" route and turns it up to 11. Unfortunately, nobody does multi-window compositor to application integration well--Apple is the best, but by no means good. Even Windows drops to software rendering on resizes and actually integrating with the compositor needs a whole host of new Windows calls that nobody ever uses.
The whole "You need link a library and draw your own decorations" is, put simply, ludicrous. You don't draw them on Windows, macOS, iOS, or Android. Yes, that means you can't change your window manager, so be it. Look at the contortions and dependency chain that the winit package on Rust has to keep in order to communicate with Wayland.
The fact that I need 50,000 lines of code called wlroots is nothing short of a travesty. Even if I use a language which is much better for security, that 50,000 lines of code is a shambling security disaster that will bite me in the ass.
And that's before we start talking about some of the architectural design decisions made in wlroots. The design decisions are so anathema to something like Rust that people have given up and been forced back to C: http://way-cooler.org/blog/2019/04/29/rewriting-way-cooler-i...
(Side note: this is one of my perennial hot buttons, and Wayland isn't the only guilty party. "Everybody Wants To Rule the Event Loop" by "Tears for Engineers" has become ingrained in programmers, and it's a BAD thing. Event loops don't compose and you wind up with callback hell trying to put two of them together. Polling does compose (ie. “readiness” rather than the “completion”), but it's a lot more work on both sides of the programming equation--the application and the library--to get it right.)
There's also some strangeness about hiDPI and scaling in Wayland that just seems to be wrong. But maybe my brain's just too small, and I don't have enough context--it wouldn't be the first time.
Of course, it's easy to armchair quarterback and difficult to construct. This is hard, grungy work and the Wayland guys are putting in the elbow grease. Until I'm willing to pick up an editor, my opinions aren't worth much.
Overall, though, I see myself staying on X11 until I simply can't anymore.
Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#139I would love to see a minimalist Linux distro for ARM SBCs that shipped Wayland, river (or Sway) and foot as its default environment. I guess the interest just isn’t there.
postmarketOS (based on Alpine) has a Sway image for the Pinebook Pro (aarch64).
Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland
#140> KDE, I have heard mixed things about, but can’t speak to. Does anyone here use KDE on Wayland currently? How well does it run? What are the pain points?
it runs better than GNOME that is for sure. You can't adjust scroll speed in GNOME. Bunch of applications are without titlebars, like Electron apps or MPV, because they refused to support kind of server (or compositor) side decorations. Some apps don't have proper icons (because they don't set properly app_id, but KDE works around that). They are also some weird GNOME specific glitches I didn't encountered in KDE or…
> Some apps don't have proper icons (because they don't set properly app_id, but KDE works around that).
How exactly? I experienced such issue in KDE with Firefox for instance (since I'm using a beta version) and had to create a couple of custom .desktop files to address it.