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Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

wsj.com

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Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#41

Post by FeepingCreature »

mellavora wrote: post #34
dijit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is how it works. That’s what we assume will work when we apply sanctions on Russia. If it was less serious, if it wasn’t in our faces that innocent people were dying, if it was something “far away” and “complicated” and not so one-sided. It would work. Some (perhaps most) people are extremely selfish, even when it’s detrimental to themselves; you see it all the time with people not leaving enough space to collec…

You list several examples where people are selfish. In many cases, the selfishness is not inherent in people, it is a combination of the setup of the system and social norms. Using your "boarding a plane" example. Compare boarding a Ryan Air flight from Frankfurt/Hahn to a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt am Main. Specifically these two, because Germany still has a somewhat cohesive culture/cultural identity, and one…

For further reference, the googleable terms are "high/low trust society".

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#42

Post by dijit »

mellavora wrote: post #34
dijit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is how it works. That’s what we assume will work when we apply sanctions on Russia. If it was less serious, if it wasn’t in our faces that innocent people were dying, if it was something “far away” and “complicated” and not so one-sided. It would work. Some (perhaps most) people are extremely selfish, even when it’s detrimental to themselves; you see it all the time with people not leaving enough space to collec…

You list several examples where people are selfish. In many cases, the selfishness is not inherent in people, it is a combination of the setup of the system and social norms. Using your "boarding a plane" example. Compare boarding a Ryan Air flight from Frankfurt/Hahn to a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt am Main. Specifically these two, because Germany still has a somewhat cohesive culture/cultural identity, and one…

I’m not sure it’s as cut and dry as that. I flew from Munich to Copenhagen on Friday with Lufthansa.

I was on an aisle seat and was deadlocked twice while leaving the plane, there were also people crowding the luggage conveyor belt, which is why those examples come to mind.

It’s not about cheap vs expensive or culture vs nature: humans have the capacity to be altruistic, but it seems quite common to be selfish.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#43

Post by Radim »

camillomiller wrote: post #14
seydor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

> Those are not our people (non christian, non white).

Did you mean to end in "/s" for sarcasm?

Armenia was the very first country in the world to adopt Christianity, and is officially Christian to this day. As for "non white"… do you know where the term "Caucasian" comes from?

You may not consider Armenians "our people", that's your call. But you don't get to hide behind Armenia's religion or ethnicity.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#44

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

POPOSYS wrote: post #36
Helmut10001 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, the best way to unite a group is to attack its core values - a sure way to bring people together. If we, as Europeans, allow Russia to proceed, just to stay warm in winter, we'd give up on our core values, which are what makes us a democratic Europe.

Then Europeans will have to fight anti-demcratic movements in Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Italy, Spain, wait... more and more of Europe is on the list of countries where political parties with openly anti-democratic values ("illiberal democracies") are not only in parliaments, but also in governments. See recent success for "Sweden Democrats" and take a look at the votes in Italy next week. Also you have to always remem…

Your comment is an unnecessarily long way to say "imperfect things are not perfect". Democracies are unstable and need constant defense. That's not a new thing and that will be true for a long time to come.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#46

Post by samus »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #6
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

It’s a lot more complicated to be honest. There are different ways to end the conflicts and different degrees of support possible. Some European countries were in favour of pushing for peace talks far earlier but the current Ukrainian government has complete support from the USA and territorial ambition of its own. Belligerents are not into it out of the goodness of their heart you know. It’s not really about saving…

Peace talks before Russia is pushed back at least to Ukraine's post-2014 borders is basically a victory for Russia, and we would have this conversation again in 5-10 years.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#47

Post by emptysongglass »

jack_pp wrote: post #33
camillomiller wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

I'm sorry but I share a border with Ukraine and unless you're close to the border to maybe interact with them more I'm not sure many in my own country would feel kinship with them. We're more concerned that the war is on our doorstep. I can assure you this is how most of my country feels. There are some that are virtue signaling and are very active in their support for Ukraine on social media but I've met enough peop…

I've had quite the opposite experience working with Ukrainians as peers at my last company: I find them much like other Europeans. I very much care about their welfare and have given much of my own money to support them. I have offered my own apartment for shelter.

If you don't want to care about them that's fine but please do not project your lack of empathy to others as to what this really is about.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#48

Post by kupfer »

misja111 wrote: post #21
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Only 46% of Germans want to stick to the plan of not using gas from Russia's new Northstream 2 pipeline when things will get more tough in the winter: https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/forsa-blitzumfrage-... Most of the proponents of giving in to Putin's tempting offer are coming from the right populist AFD party or from former East Germany.

From your source: "The proposal [to open Northstream 2] is rejected by a majority (53 per cent), but just over a third would be in favour."

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#49

Post by xwolfi »

Ambolia wrote: post #24

I think the only question here is not if the EU can secure "enough gas", which I doubt it can even if the article is so sure, but at what price? And can the German industry stay competitive with those energy prices? In case it can't, what will be the EU's future without Germany as the economic motor?

Maybe France can take over, at a lower productive level certainly. We have less ideology in energy sourcing (I d say many of us may even be proud of nuclear power and I had enough insanely aggressive debate with our German friends to know there s someth wrong there in how they represent it), we can find a way to change our work culture to target profitability a bit more and we can take as many german refugees as we need to fill our skill gaps.

Germany is the most profitable most efficient economic engine in the EU, by far probably, but if it falters, we'll find another way, as we always have, and maybe end up with less millionaires.

One thing we wont do is allow Russia to start land grabbing unopposed in the hope they ll be nice and stop at Ukraine. We ve seen it before, many times, we've even done it ourselves, we know how it ends.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#50

Post by fabian2k »

seydor wrote: post #10
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

I think apart from the fact that the conflict is a lot closer to us, one huge difference is that this conflict is very straightforward. It's an invasion into a sovereign country. Just compare the original Krim/DPR/LPR annexation, the story was much more muddled because the invasion was obfuscated and you had the alternative story that these were actually Russians that wanted to belong to Russia. Doesn't matter what the truth is here, simply making it appear that this could be more like a civil war/separatist thing makes it complex enough that we didn't really care.
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