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Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

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Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are containers, not VMs.

They can be either. This is expressly supported, e.g. by the libvirt tooling ecosystem.

Ah, my bad, I wasn't aware machined supported VMs as well. I wonder how that works with the other systemd integrations (like viewing logs from the hypervisor OS with journalctl), I suppose it just doesn't?

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#52
post #8

I find kubernetes - systemd overlap angle as a very valid point. When I first started to learn kubernetes more often than not I was thinking 'hey, we can do that with systemd as well!'

I noticed the same but came away with a different conclusion, "hey, k8s is reimplementing the OS.". In other words, concepts which have existed for years, battle tested and well known, are new and untested in the k8s world.

But k8s is distributed across several computers. If you could have Linux manage resources and run processes across several computers I think people would do that.

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#53
post #8

I find kubernetes - systemd overlap angle as a very valid point. When I first started to learn kubernetes more often than not I was thinking 'hey, we can do that with systemd as well!'

I noticed the same but came away with a different conclusion, "hey, k8s is reimplementing the OS.". In other words, concepts which have existed for years, battle tested and well known, are new and untested in the k8s world.

They're not even really new or untested, just being done at a different plane of abstraction. Running a system efficiently across multiple machines requires different implementations of familiar abstractions than running on a single machine. Even the single machine approach has changed dramatically in the last 20+ years. We started single program, went to single user, to multi-user, to multi-processor, to multi-core, to NUMA, etc (not necessarily in that order), and a significant subset of systems are now multi-machine, even if you ignore the internet. All of these new paradigms tend to have similar base requirements/optimizations that would kind of be pointless to reinvent versus simply adapting to the new infrastructure style.

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#54

I'm skeptical, and I think systemd gets way more hate than it deserves, but it's interesting to see an alternative from someone outside of the "Make Init Shell Again" crowd.

systemd is like chicken tendies -- its always been there for me.

My first experience was with Arch Linux right when they switched to Systemd. I hated it, but I didn't really get what it was, not knowing what an init system or a process even is.

But I was then quite surprised a few years later when it was just the normal thing for me when people in Debian were basically fighting a war over it.

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#55

I think I'm stupid, because for me this all seems overly complex. Why do the things get more and more complex instead of the opposite? Is it really the only way? Like said, I'm clearly stupid for not understanding it.

Uh, what are you talking about? the article is talking about significantly reducing the complexity of running a destributed container platform...

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#56
post #8

I find kubernetes - systemd overlap angle as a very valid point. When I first started to learn kubernetes more often than not I was thinking 'hey, we can do that with systemd as well!'

I noticed the same but came away with a different conclusion, "hey, k8s is reimplementing the OS.". In other words, concepts which have existed for years, battle tested and well known, are new and untested in the k8s world.

> concepts which have existed for years, battle tested and well known, are new and untested in the k8s world

...and they also create lock-in wrt k8s.

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#57
Cool!

It looks like the Aurae language leverages Rhai? Or is that temporary?

In "Aurae Scope", would logging be in scope as well?

Do you think Aurae would be a nice successor to docker swarm, or is that not a product goal?

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#58
post #40
post #8

I find kubernetes - systemd overlap angle as a very valid point. When I first started to learn kubernetes more often than not I was thinking 'hey, we can do that with systemd as well!'

This is how fleet on CoreOS was designed. It just managed systemd containers across your nodes (IIRC its been a while)

More like it managed systemd services/units across the cluster, like a distributed systemd.

That was still early days for systemd-nspawn, folks would be using docker containers under systemd services. And that caused heaps of other problems because docker was aspiring to do PID 1's jobs as well.

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#59

I think I'm stupid, because for me this all seems overly complex. Why do the things get more and more complex instead of the opposite? Is it really the only way? Like said, I'm clearly stupid for not understanding it.

You're not the one who is insane.

Assume you have a $25k budget for a Dell server and $20k for attached storage . Go see what you can build on Dell.com's online configuration tool.

You could colocate everything you can buy for $45k in a half rack at a reputable datacenter for $750 per month including a burstable to 1gbit internet connection.

I estimate that at least 75% of the people who are commenting on these threads, will not have a product or service that could cause that server to choke on the load, nor saturate the 1gbit feed with legitimate traffic from their applications.

But they will instead recommend that for 600k/year in spend you over-engineer all aspects... I call it CVops instead of DevOps. CV being another word for resume...

Re: Why Fix Kubernetes and Systemd?

#60

I think I'm stupid, because for me this all seems overly complex. Why do the things get more and more complex instead of the opposite? Is it really the only way? Like said, I'm clearly stupid for not understanding it.

You're not the one who is insane. Assume you have a $25k budget for a Dell server and $20k for attached storage . Go see what you can build on Dell.com's online configuration tool. You could colocate everything you can buy for $45k in a half rack at a reputable datacenter for $750 per month including a burstable to 1gbit internet connection. I estimate that at least 75% of the people who are commenting on these threa…

>I call it CVops instead of DevOps. CV being another word for resume...

I might borrow this, although I'm leaning towards Res[ume]Ops

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