US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years • Hacker News Board

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#531

Post by autoexec » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 11:19 AM UTC

formerly_proven wrote: post #528

autoexec wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are things you can do in your life, or elements of your personal background and lifestyle that, though you never really opted into them, you may benefit from (one might call them 'privileges'), which will reduce the chances that you personally will run into trouble with the law quite considerably. They are always watching. Always collecting your data and trolling through it looking for things to use against y…

> You can always make choices that will make your situation worse, but no matter what you do or don't do there's really no telling what might cause you harm. People resist this notion because psychologically, on a basic level, we wanna feel safe at home. In Maslow's ordered sets of needs, the need to feel safe at your resting spot comes right after "not being beaten", "not freezing" and "not starving". The idea that…

That's what makes the panopticon so disturbing. You can't (or at least shouldn't) ever feel entirely safe/free because the threat is always looming and strikes at any time. I think on some level most people do realize that, even the ones who have never known things any other way, and I think it's only getting harder and harder to ignore. Difficult to say what it's been doing to us though. There' are a lot of other things contributing to the background level of dread these days.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#532

Post by RajT88 » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 12:12 PM UTC

ikiris wrote: post #495

RajT88 wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a Nigerian wedding a few years back. Met a lot of techies who lived in the bay area. One was a PM at Microsoft even. If you get the chance to go to a Nigerian wedding, you definitely should because it is an awesome time.

was it to a nigerian prince?

The bride was named "Princess" so... Technically...

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#533

Post by koheripbal » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

gjm11 wrote: post #67

koheripbal wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like suggesting a biological cell not have a cell wall. One of the fundamental functions of a country is to regulate input/outputs at the border. There are so many disastrous problems that arise from the elimination of a border, that I question whether such a suggestion is ever even made seriously or made by sane people.

That analogy may be more insightful than you meant it to be. Animal cells (e.g., the ones in your body or mine) do not have cell walls. They do have membranes surrounding the cells, but they aren't walls. In the same way, any country has borders, but there's a lot of scope for variation in what they allow across the border under what conditions. "Open borders" does not mean "no borders". For instance, the borders bet…

You've made a useless semantic argument between using the word "wall" vs "membrane".

A membrane or wall regulate the input/output of everything in/out of the cell - from water to proteins to everything else.

A cell without a membrane dies - immediately.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#534

Post by Bakary » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #527

Bakary wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elephant in the room in this case is that at a most basic level a State is an entity that maintains a (near) monopoly of violence in a given area. Being a normal law-abiding citizen just means that you are currently functioning in an area where the State's goals somewhat coincide with you living with some degree of freedom and comfort. Or at least they have no current incentive to mess with your life. But the who…

The state's monopoly, qua Max Weber, is on the legitimate use of violence. That is, the right and legitimacy of that right, is restricted to the state. Absent this, one of three conditions exist; 1. There is no monopoly. In which case violence is widespread, and there is no state. 2. There is no legitimacy. In which case violence is capricious. This is your condition of tyranny (unaccountable power). 3. Some non-stat…

I am aware of the original definition and am not simply parroting it. I am questioning the idea of legitimacy here. Capriciousness is a highly relative term that is influenced by class and social differences i.e. what will appear legitimate and normal to an economically established person will be much more violent to a person of lower status.

The other problem is that even if you admit that legitimacy is a thing and not a circular construct (i.e. the idea is reinforced to promote the relative power of the group that sees itself as legitimate, and gains currency because the group is already powerful), you still have other states to contend with that are just against each other with no rules above them. And of course the capriciousness of a state against another state is seen as just normal diplomacy because we are used to it, when in fact it is often quite a brutal affair.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#535

Post by antifa » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #423

gmadsen wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

im not sure what definition you are using, the executive is nearly 80, the average age of congress is 60, average age of CEOs is 58. You know, the people with actual power. These are not millennial ages..

The civil servant representatives may be older, but they don’t hold the power. They are hired by the power to serve the power. Again , we are talking about the power, not those who the power has delegated some work to.

The vast majority of elections are "which boomer or older do you want to represent make decisions for you?"

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#536

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 3:20 PM UTC

Bakary wrote: post #534

dredmorbius wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state's monopoly, qua Max Weber, is on the legitimate use of violence. That is, the right and legitimacy of that right, is restricted to the state. Absent this, one of three conditions exist; 1. There is no monopoly. In which case violence is widespread, and there is no state. 2. There is no legitimacy. In which case violence is capricious. This is your condition of tyranny (unaccountable power). 3. Some non-stat…

I am aware of the original definition and am not simply parroting it. I am questioning the idea of legitimacy here. Capriciousness is a highly relative term that is influenced by class and social differences i.e. what will appear legitimate and normal to an economically established person will be much more violent to a person of lower status. The other problem is that even if you admit that legitimacy is a thing and…

Legitimacy isn't what you'd emphasized initially, however, and my sense is that presenting Weber's definition and analyzing it with specific focus brings the issue to light more usefully.

I agree that the question of legitimacy is central, and highly concerning.

Intrastate conflict would fall outside Weber's definition, though how specifically that occurs can vary, e.g., within international zones (usually maritime, occasionally air or space, outside of Antarctica very seldom on land), or with border / sovereignty conflicts (India/Pakistan, India/China, China/Taiwan, North & South Korea, Israel/Palestine, Russia and numerous former Soviet republics, etc.), failed states (Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan), or geopolitics (numerous US invasions, incursions, regime-changes, etc., for example).

What the US is doing in terms of demanding device access and holding data for inordinate lengths of time, as well as numerous other examples of the state-capitalist surveillance apparatus is exceedingly troubling.

But getting Weber's definition correct makes for a better basis for discussion.

(This has become a bit of a bugbear for me.)

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#537

Post by randomdata » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

geoelectric wrote: post #397

gmadsen wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

im not sure what definition you are using, the executive is nearly 80, the average age of congress is 60, average age of CEOs is 58. You know, the people with actual power. These are not millennial ages..

For the most part, they're barely even Gen X ages. Still a boomer world in the upper ranks once you get outside tech.

Upper ranks, sure, but at the very top you find millennials. They are the largest and strongest force.

Of course, they also don't really consider the implications. Step away from HN, where the perspective is biased by people who study security for a living, for a minute and you won't find much of anyone who is stopping to think why this may be a problem.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#538

Post by randomdata » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 3:49 PM UTC

antifa wrote: post #535

randomdata wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The civil servant representatives may be older, but they don’t hold the power. They are hired by the power to serve the power. Again , we are talking about the power, not those who the power has delegated some work to.

The vast majority of elections are "which boomer or older do you want to represent make decisions for you?"

Certainly. Every manager understands that when you hire an employee there will be situations where, in the heat of the moment, they have to make decisions without consulting a higher rank and sometimes you won't like those decisions. That's the nature of being an employer. If you weren't willing to take that risk you wouldn't hire someone.

However, when an employee doesn't do what you like you can tell them to stop going forward. There isn't much will to have the employees stop in this case because nobody is thinking about the security implications outside of HN where you have professional security researchers able to provide their unique perspective. Security is a fairly hard to understand topic if you're not deeply engrossed in it and is not something people casually think about.

Venture out into the world where you find millennials in construction, food service, retail, childcare, etc. and listen to what they are talking about. I can almost guarantee it is not this.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#539

Post by woodruffw » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:00 PM UTC

ROTMetro wrote: post #488

woodruffw wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is without a doubt a correlation between the significance of criminal enterprise and the rate of getting caught. This is the problem with unfalsifiable claims. Why is that "without a doubt"? I can formulate a just as intuitive (and just as baseless) claim: less significant criminal enterprises get caught less, since they fail the "significance" test.

You are right, organized crime has never existed in this country. Hasn't required complex new statutes be created to go up against their sophistication. The government doesn't shout from the rooftops with their limited victories. You got me. If you exclude the history of crime in this country and go only from the context of this specific conversation, you have a valid argument. There are no Mexican cartels. They defi…

I didn't say any of that. Of course there's organized crime in the US.

My point is simple: LEOs rely on the fear and paranoia of invisible, unquantified crime to maintain public support for things that we'd otherwise never accept (domestic surveillance, civil asset forfeiture, a generally bloated and inefficient funding structure for police forces, etc.).

All I want is numbers: the money we put in should be a function of need, not of persistent handwringing by paranoiacs (or, worse, someone with a power trip taking advantage of the paranoiac). To that end, it simply isn't enough to say "we don't know what's really going on." Find out (that's what the existing ample funding is for!) and come back for more.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#540

Post by fuzzfactor » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

macrolime wrote: post #227

Even if you are a person who will never in your life end up as any kind of person of interest for the government, handing over data in this way could still be quite dangerous. Phones will often contain data that can facilitate theft and fraud if ending up in the wrong hands. If they're able to copy everything, including private data from all apps that could be quite bad. For example many countries now use apps to log…

>US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

The only reason they could possibly be doing this would be because it is not quite feasible to store it for more than 15 years. Yet.