US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years • Hacker News Board

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#511

Post by anon291 » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 3:45 AM UTC

notch656a wrote: post #478

refurb wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. A friend came back to the US after 3 years. A time period you typically lose your green card. However friend was smart to ask a lawyer and the lawyer said “agree to nothing, sign nothing, only a judge can take your green card”. So she did just that. Put up with about an hour of shit. “No, im not signing anything”, “No, I don’t agree that I’m no longer a permanent resident of the US”. Was eventually let…

I'm shocked it went that well for her. I've had agents simply lie on their report, including lying to (and waking up) a federal judge and US assistant attorney in the search warrant DHS got for me. Also had them lie to me and tell me I wasn't permitted to enter the US with my US passport. I'm quite certain if she had dealt with some of the agents I dealt with they simply would have lied or signed the form for her and…

Native born Americans of non immigrant parents are incredibly afraid of the us government.

Growing up in a family that came to this country, you're very disabused of the notion these agents have much power.

For most of them it's a power trip. Once you understand that, you will figure out what to say.

You have to understand that they know they're lying to you but it makes them feel powerful. Play into it. Let them feel the rush of power but remain firm in your goals.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#512

Post by autoexec » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 3:46 AM UTC

jameshart wrote: post #497

antipurist wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that 0.5—1% of the US population is incarcerated[1], and that getting a prison sentence is far from the only way to become a person of interest, it is quite reasonable to say that chances of getting some unwanted attention from various government and government-adjacent institutions are too damn high to ignore it. [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/01/16/percent-incarce...

While US justice certainly can be capricious and arbitrary, it is not entirely a random lottery whose eye it falls upon. And while those who believe in the centrality of personal responsibility and try to tell you that anyone who comes into contact with the police must have done something to deserve it are clearly deluded, there are things you can do in your life, or elements of your personal background and lifestyle…

> there are things you can do in your life, or elements of your personal background and lifestyle that, though you never really opted into them, you may benefit from (one might call them 'privileges'), which will reduce the chances that you personally will run into trouble with the law quite considerably.

They are always watching. Always collecting your data and trolling through it looking for things to use against you. You might not face consequences from the ongoing surveillance, but it never stops and something as simple as being in the wrong place at the wrong time or typing the wrong combinations of words in a search engine can be enough to get you questioned by police.

You can always make choices that will make your situation worse, but no matter what you do or don't do there's really no telling what might cause you harm.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#513

Post by autoexec » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 3:56 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #465

saiya-jin wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the hell would anybody sane, especially with all knowledge average HN user has about government overreach and greed, hacks, 0days, bugs etc. ever put such a critical item as banking app on their phone? Apple vs Android is irrelevant in this, there is no truly safe mainstream phone in 2022, period. Are people really that lazy? I do manage quite a few financial things but for none of those phone apps is crucial and…

>ever put such a critical item as banking app on their phone? Because my PC isn't meaningfully more secure. Because in the overwhelming majority of situations, if that security is compromised, my bank will eventually cough up my money. Also because I also expect neither Google, Apple, my carrier, nor the dab gum gubment is likely to rob me by... * checks notes * Compromising the banking app on my phone. Or my PC. Or…

> Compromising the banking app on my phone. Or my PC. Or my router. Or any of the other non-100% secure devices and processes I use to get through my life. There's basic security precautions, and there's living in fear and paranoia, brought on by a misunderstanding of the threats you are facing.

If you think the risks to your privacy and security are remotely equivalent with a PC and a cell phone I'd argue that you're the one who is misunderstanding the threats you are facing. It is possible that your PC is no more secure than your phone, but that'd be uncommon and your own failing.

You can be responsible and secure a PC pretty well, but there is nothing you can do to prevent a functional cell phone from collecting extremely sensitive data and leaking it like a sieve.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#514

Post by autoexec » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:03 AM UTC

JAlexoid wrote: post #372

roenxi wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although grandparent's logic is faulty, I think it does go to an important point. They don't need 15 years warrantless storage of phone data. On anyone, including foreigners. If it takes them 15 years to realise they shouldn't have let someone over the border it is around 14 to 14.995 years too late. The powers these agencies have is far in excesses of what they need to do their jobs, and it is going to be abused. Th…

It's called security theatre. And 15 years is corruption driven, because now you are spending X millions. of taxpayer money to store this data.

> It's called security theatre.

This isn't security theater. Security theater has to be in your face. Security theater is pageantry, but no substance. Security theater is has no impact on your safety, but makes people feel safer by providing the illusion of security.

This is substantial, has been being done without most Americans being aware of it, and it doesn't make anyone feel safer, but it still has a huge impact on your safety. It makes you less safe.

This is just a gross violation of our constitutional rights.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#515

Post by randomdata » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:10 AM UTC

gmadsen wrote: post #461

randomdata wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, let your disparagement run free. It allows us to understand that your motivation is to protect your emotional state, not to simply convey information as has been the nature of discussion up to this point. As I have no emotional attachment to the subject, I'm not bothered by it and am able to learn that you are not here in good faith. Contradictory information is welcome, encouraged even, but I am not sure you…

You are saying millennials hold the power, like it's an axiom. There is no on topic when you build your premise on that. They do not hold the power by any reasonable definition.

Were it an axiom what purpose would stating it serve? There is no value proposition found in conveying information that is already established.

Millennials hold the power, but do not understand technology well enough to realize the implications of their actions. Many tech professionals do not even understand the implications. It is a hard topic to understand.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#516

Post by rTX5CMRXIfFG » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:27 AM UTC

yosito wrote: post #408

formerly_proven wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if you are a person who will never in your life end up as any kind of person of interest for the government Literally no way to ensure that.

The chances of becoming a person of interest will always be non-zero, but I think I a lot of people can be reasonably confident that they are not likely to become a person of interest.

This discussion is sorely lacking the nuance that you don’t even have to be a person of interest. You just have to be a convenient fall guy. There’s always a right time for anybody to fit that description.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#517

Post by refurb » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:35 AM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #511

notch656a wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm shocked it went that well for her. I've had agents simply lie on their report, including lying to (and waking up) a federal judge and US assistant attorney in the search warrant DHS got for me. Also had them lie to me and tell me I wasn't permitted to enter the US with my US passport. I'm quite certain if she had dealt with some of the agents I dealt with they simply would have lied or signed the form for her and…

Native born Americans of non immigrant parents are incredibly afraid of the us government. Growing up in a family that came to this country, you're very disabused of the notion these agents have much power. For most of them it's a power trip. Once you understand that, you will figure out what to say. You have to understand that they know they're lying to you but it makes them feel powerful. Play into it. Let them fee…

This is true, but you have to be careful.

I know in developing countries, the cops are nothing more than opportunist thugs. I have friends who tell them to just "fuck off" regularly. Then they come to the US with the same attitude, and while true US cops have limited powers, the "fuck off" approach often doesn't go over as well as politely refusing and stating your rights.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#518

Post by refurb » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:37 AM UTC

bigbacaloa wrote: post #297

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy is a human right. United Nations Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) 1948, Article 12: “No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.” https://privacyinternational.org/explainer/56/what-privacy

Privacy is not a right under US law. The US constitution makes no mention of it and the interpretive framework that creates such a right was recently overthrown in the antiRoe ruling.

You seem confused.

Privacy is not an implicit right under the Constitution under the new ruling of RvW, but that doesn't mean it's not a right under US law. There are plenty of privacy laws in the US.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#519

Post by notch656a » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:43 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #517

anon291 wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native born Americans of non immigrant parents are incredibly afraid of the us government. Growing up in a family that came to this country, you're very disabused of the notion these agents have much power. For most of them it's a power trip. Once you understand that, you will figure out what to say. You have to understand that they know they're lying to you but it makes them feel powerful. Play into it. Let them fee…

This is true, but you have to be careful. I know in developing countries, the cops are nothing more than opportunist thugs. I have friends who tell them to just "fuck off" regularly. Then they come to the US with the same attitude, and while true US cops have limited powers, the "fuck off" approach often doesn't go over as well as politely refusing and stating your rights.

When I was younger I used the "fuck off" approach. I would say it worked slightly better than the polite approach of asserting my rights (and then shutting the fuck up) I use now. The polite approach tends to make them falsely believe I am a push over. The only real reason I use it now is because body cams are everywhere and I assume the judge will be watching exactly what I say if I ends up in court. Before body cams I assumed the cop would just make up the most horrid shit possible so there was not point in being nice.

Course it makes not much difference now. I'm on CBP's watch-list or some shit so I'm in for the 16+ hour shit-show, fraudulent warrants, with HSI detectives and the works everytime anyways. Even the seemingly nice agents see it on the computer and say "you know the drill" and send me into the bad-boy room.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#520

Post by pdimitar » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:45 AM UTC

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #41

pdimitar wrote: post #33

Honestly, as a non-American this scares me. I am absolutely not at all important and a fairly mediocre programmer as well, I don't store compromising data about anyone, never stole code or company data in my life (and never will), etc., you get it. A normal law-abiding citizen. I still don't want to get my phone taken on an US airport and returned an hour later with God knows how many viruses that even Apple wouldn't…

Also, I'm sure the US isn't the only country that does this. So if you travel internationally at all, you're essentially boned when it comes to personal privacy.

That's absolutely true, we were just discussing USA at the time. I have heard plenty of stories where security randomly pulls somebody from the crowd and straight up orders them to unlock their phone, or else.