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US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

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Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#421
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a split here between law and practicality for many people I guess. As a matter of law for US Citizens it doesn't matter whether there is an "exemption" or not: a US Citizen may not be denied entry at a land port of entry, period. Their property can potentially be taken but only with legal process and it can't be kept indefinitely without violation of law. If they're wanted for a crime they can of course be a…

And of course non-Citizens presenting for entry at the border are subject to the coercion that refusal to comply will likely result in entry being refused. Noncitizens do actually still have human rights (something Americans often seem to forget - ‘I can’t believe they used a dronestrike on a US citizen’, etc) But take the example of a person who has been issued a visa, looking to enter the US with the intent to immi…

Sorry, 5 comments in a few hours triggered HN's rate limiting, "sorry you are posting too fast", so I couldn't reply earlier. Not sure if you'll still see this but since I wrote it anyway:

>And of course non-Citizens presenting for entry at the border are subject to the coercion that refusal to comply will likely result in entry being refused. Noncitizens do actually still have human rights

Certainly, but this sub-thread is specifically about Americans, so that's what I was sticking to. That said yes, non-citizens do not have any right of entry. However, that is the norm worldwide not the exception. There is no universal "human right" to enter any country except as a refugee or someone seeking asylum per ratified treaties or domestic law. The basic idea of a "sovereign nation" is somewhat bound up with the capability of border control and distinguishing the nation from the world. There are lots and lots of very reasonable disagreements on what said controls should be, what exceptions, and so on. But "completely open borders" is a fairly niche position. This at least isn't merely a US thing, I would exercise some level of caution for international travel anywhere on the planet when it comes to personal property and devices, or even just my own liberty. Different countries can have radically different legal regimes. If any of us are traveling somewhere we don't have any inherent legal right to be, then naturally there is some leverage there in terms of what conditions might be set for our entry.

>This data collection is egregious even when applied to noncitizens.

I do agree (and I think it's generally agreed upon in civil liberties circles) that the global increase in data collection, storage, and processing capabilities is not merely "worrisome" but prone to abuse and in fact actively abused. It's a bad thing. I'd personally go farther in that I lean towards the idea that a lot of modern electronic devices should be considered almost as "exo cortexes", extensions of our minds that should have the same kind of protection as the contents of our minds (and that protection should be total). This is another area where tech has raced ahead of societal reckoning.

As far as individual reactions though I'd say the same thing as for business secrets or whatever else: the best thing to do is to just not have it on you, have no ability to get it either, have other humans who know your travel plans and can check on you, know what rights you do have, where to make complaints, and most of all have fallbacks if things don't work out. That alone is very empowering. If some data is vitally important and private to the level you describe, perhaps stick it onto an encrypted image on a USB stick and mail it separately or something along those lines. Or via private online transfer of which there are many, but something completely out of band from your own physical person.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Any malicious person savvy enough to pull off a crime of interest...and they have to know this. You'd be amazed at how many dumb things smart criminals/people can do. Maintaining proper OpSec is hard. It only takes one mistake to give the LEOs a string to pull to unravel the whole sweater. Everything else, I tend to feel the same way as you. Just wanted to mention the OpSec part

One of the Pirate Bay founders, Varg, a proper hacker, stored unecrypted mails from the others and "framed" them when the police seized his computer.

What do you mean by "framed" them?

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence community only exists because those in power grant it so. The millennials hold the power. Certainly they delegate – there is only so much time in the day – but the outcome still rests on what lies at the top. The reality is that millennials, as a generation, don't see a problem with this. Select individuals may, but individuals don't hold power.

im not sure what definition you are using, the executive is nearly 80, the average age of congress is 60, average age of CEOs is 58. You know, the people with actual power. These are not millennial ages..

The civil servant representatives may be older, but they don’t hold the power. They are hired by the power to serve the power. Again , we are talking about the power, not those who the power has delegated some work to.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't prevent anything if they install malware that persists after a factory reset.

Is that possible with any recent phone?

Do we have any reason to believe to the contrary?

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still think there is merit in Lifeboat Ethics. Our country can only support so many people before it would be overwhelmed by resource scarcity and further overpopulation that burdens other nations. Of course closed borders are protectionist. I don't think that's a bad thing.

We're nowhere close to the point where that argument would have merit.

Correct, so the right thing to do is make sure we get to that point by having open borders.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#427
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Any malicious person savvy enough to pull off a crime of interest to the Feds is smart enough to provide a wiped or burner phone to DHS/ICE, and they have to know this. So, what is the point in doing this if not to target law abiding citizens. This isn't even remotely true. See for example the recent Anom honeypot[1]. Criminals do more or less the same things that ordinary citizens do, and often have strictly wo…

Although grandparent's logic is faulty, I think it does go to an important point. They don't need 15 years warrantless storage of phone data. On anyone, including foreigners. If it takes them 15 years to realise they shouldn't have let someone over the border it is around 14 to 14.995 years too late. The powers these agencies have is far in excesses of what they need to do their jobs, and it is going to be abused. Th…

And I'm sure they will treat your data with the same regard they do government personell files and applications for security clearance.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#428

This happened to me in 2016 crossing into Canada. Borders agents took my phone for no reason, demand I give them the password to unlock it (otherwise they would seize the phone), took it in the back for 45 min before returning it and letting me enter. I think it’s obvious they took all my data. So now when I travel I just bring my “travel” phone with no sensitive data on it.

> Borders agents took my phone... Which countries agents? You were going from US to Canada. Were they Canadian or US agents?

Canadian

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#429
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument, and that of many others here, seems to be that any govt surveillance is illegitimate, and that govt cannot have any legitimate reason to capture information on anyone. There couldn't be any actual reason for intelligence operations. "It is your politics showing". Any such view is hopelessly ignorant and naive, yet it pops up here often. The person to whom I'm replying is blatantly implying that it is n…

> If you want to do that, we might as well simply declare anarchy, and let everyone deal with the criminals and warlords who will take over, and that's no exaggeration. Bruv … Honestly I can’t tell if you’re for real or no. You already did that! California. People robbing stores in broad daylight, nothing happens to them. Chicago. Do I need to say anything about that third world enclave? Bloody hell man, chaz. A lite…

[deleted]

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#430
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? Just because one person professes to have no trouble understanding something doesn't mean it was clear. Maybe you have unusual powers of comprehension. Maybe you understood it because the tacit assumptions happened to align with your prejudices. Maybe you are rewriting the past [1] to save face. Your testimony in this regard doesn't really inform the discussion. [1] https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2014/02/h…

The prejudice that it's unlikely that an HN poster doesn't know George Floyd's story? Not only should you have that prejudice too, but simply assuming good faith would have helped you as well.

My prejudice is that if ch4c3 had noticed that the parent comment did provide an example (and it did) he would have said something like: the example you gave is not applicable because… do you have any other examples that are more on point?
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