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US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

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Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#181
post #176
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read it. Floyd wasn’t killed while refusing an unlawful search, which is specifically what I’m asking about.

Do you really think the details of the pretext matter?

We’ll I was specifically asking if there are examples of people being killed by police for refusing a search without a warrant, so it matters insofar as it’s the question I asked.

I’m not here to defend policing as it stands in the US or dismiss any wrongful killing. I just disagree with a particular narrow assertion.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#182
post #51

we need to end this useless security theater. only a matter of time until a bad actor gets ahold of this massive database and sells it off to the highest bidder

It's useless for us but not the ruling class.

As a foreigner to the US I see this as a simple display of power: See how powerful we are over you, we can and will exert control over you, your data and your belongings. If you want to enter our Empire you will belong to us and will allow us to plug all your orifices.

No way I felt like that when travelling to the UK or to continental Europe.

The real answer is to avoid traveling there. Empires crumble when they become irrelevant. And for US citizens, they should definitely strive to create a society with more freedom and privacy for them. But only if they want that, which doesn't seem that way nowadays.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#183
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people have been killed by law enforcement for doing what you are suggesting. Can you cite any examples of this happening? I’m a pretty big policing reform person and follow this stuff closely and can’t think of a single case like this.

> I’m a pretty big policing reform person and follow this stuff closely and can’t think of a single case like this. I live in Mexico and even I know about the Floyd case ... it seems you don't really follow that kind of thing at all.

That incident doesn’t really relate to refusing a search without a warrant. While a horrible injustice, the particulars are quite different.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#184

Terrifying for only 2 reasons: 1. Any malicious person savvy enough to pull off a crime of interest to the Feds is smart enough to provide a wiped or burner phone to DHS/ICE, and they have to know this. So, what is the point in doing this if not to target law abiding citizens. 2. USGOV has a spotty track record of keeping this information secure. A foreign actor is likely to access this info eventually. As one former…

I thought of a third reason:

3. they took your phone and kept all your data

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#185
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ACLU is wrong. The border does it all the time. Here is the one that sticks out in my mind as the most popular case: The ACLU is not wrong, if you actually read their actual words. Your case doesn't say what you think it does. From your own article: > Bikkannavar insisted that he wasn’t allowed to do that because the phone belonged to NASA’s JPL and he’s required to protect access. Agents insisted and he finall…

Let me know how successful you are crossing the border and getting home when you tell CBP to “pound sand”. They’ll just deny you entry and you’re left with very little recourse. Effectively they are the judge and jury and you’re stuck in the waiting area if you’re lucky, a holding cell if you’re not If you think you’re immune just because you’re a US citizen, you’re not.

>Let me know how successful you are crossing the border and getting home when you tell CBP to “pound sand”. They’ll just deny you entry and you’re left with very little recourse.

How about instead of this handwave-y impossible ask BS you cite any actual cases at all since Lyttle v. US (10 years ago) where the CBP denied a US Citizen entry or deported them? There is plenty of case law here. In Nguyen v. INS the Supreme Court stated that (emphasis added) "[...]a citizen entitled as of birth to the full protection of the United States, to the absolute right to enter its borders, and to full participation in the political process." And that's not even tied to a passport. In Worthy v. US the 5th Circuit found the government could not impose a penalty on returning without a passport: "We think it is inherent in the concept of citizenship that the citizen, when absent from the country to which he owes allegiance, has a right to return, again to set foot on its soil. . . . We do not think that a citizen, absent from his country, can have his fundamental right to have free ingress thereto subject to a criminal penalty if he does not have a passport."

Lower courts have since cited all this, even when the practical result was a mixed bag or a loss for the plaintiff. Fikre v. FBI was about the no-fly list, and the court didn't hold that the absolute right to return meant the US couldn't prevent getting on an airplane in another country, and that Fikre hadn't asserted enough facts to support that the No-Fly list and boarding denial were enough to violate his right to get to a port of entry a different way. I think that's unfortunate, saying essentially "well take a boat or figure out a flight to Canada/Mexico" isn't ok and I think the whole no-fly list is flagrantly bad, but the court did uphold a citizen's right to enter borders on getting to them.

Finally in Lyttle v. US [0] there was indeed a case where a US citizen with mental challenges was detained by ICE and deported, after being allegedly coerced into signing a document falsely stating he was Mexican citizen. This set off a saga that eventually resulted in the DHS terminating deportation efforts "on the basis that “it was determined that [Lyttle] was not a Mexican citizen and is, in fact, a citizen of the United States.”" The court refused to dismiss all damages claims, and at all times ICE/CBP proceeded on the basis of fraud that he in fact wasn't a US citizen. Court found that the government is simply not authorized to detain or deport US citizens, and thus may not ignore any credible assertion of citizenship.

So again, if you have a newer example to share where someone was denied entry at all, let alone "with very little recourse", you share it. Otherwise you're just posting FUD.

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0: https://casetext.com/case/lyttle-v-united-states-3

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy a 2nd-hand $40 scrap phone, erase it, save a few panorama pictures and a couple of selfies on it and put your SIM card in it every time you are about to cross a border. Then put the card back in your regular phone after that.

Good thing the trend is toward non-removable SIMs to stop that sort of shady business.

Non removable sim? Who wants that?

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#187
Lot's of people fantasizing about what they'll do at the border with weaponizing the data on a burner phone. Let me present a "simpler" and actually realistic option (only for US citizens) on how to handle this:

1. Have a reasonable amount of emergency savings (6-8 months of expenses stored).

2. Have someone in-country who isn't traveling with you who can make sure your bills get paid (financial power of attorney).

3. Apply for Global Entry, which pre-clears you for border crossing.

4. Turn your phone /off/ when you land (usually a 15-20 minute walk to passport control in most airports). Powering off is important.

5. Refuse to provide the password, refuse to unlock. Provide all relevant travel documents and customs declarations, and allow free inspection of your baggage.

6. Wait... depends on the agent. Longest I've been detained was 2 days, most of the time they hem and haw for an hour or so and let you go.

7. Go on with your life.

Step #1 and #2 is in case you get arrested, which will almost guarantee losing your job, at least for right then. Since you can clearly establish no priors and that you aren't a flight risk, getting bail and then finding another job should be relatively easy to do within 6-8 months for most of the HN crowd. Also, invest in pre-paid legal.

Obviously, this is assuming things go mostly okay and you don't get murdered at the airport, however the realistic probability of this occurring is fantastically low (these types of crimes are almost always committed in the US by local law enforcement, not federal law enforcement, as feds undergo much more stringent requirements and aren't just your high school bully drunk on power with a gun).

Steps #1 and #2 you should be doing anyway, just out of good financial sense. Step #3 you should do anyway if you're traveling internationally regularly just to make your life easier when black swan events don't happen. And Step #4 you should do EVERY time you are about to let your phone out of your possession, whether involving the government or not, because it prevents most forms of attacks against an encrypted device and disables biometric unlock (which can be coerced/forced/done when you are dead).

The hardest step is honestly #7, because after what I've experienced in my travels (and let me tell you, the US CBP is MUCH MUCH more professional, courteous, and reasonable than many many other countries), nobody really believes you and there are way too many people that are apologists for the powerful. Governments, pretty much universally, suck. The only difference between whether you personally experience the suck or not is whether or not you happen to get randomly selected or fall outside the bounds of what the government expects of you. There is no requirement that you do anything "wrong" in either the moral or legal sense, to end up stuck in the suck. Embrace the suck early if you plan to exercise your rights, because doing so will bring the suck on to you full force, but if you're the self-righteous type at least you'll get some sense of satisfaction out of it.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#188
post #28
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From reading the directive it appears as though they don’t have an exemption for Americans: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/PIA-CBP... Of course the official response is what you would expect: “CBP officials declined, however, to answer questions about how many Americans’ phone records are in the database, how many searches have been run or how long the practice has gone on, saying it has made no…

There is a split here between law and practicality for many people I guess. As a matter of law for US Citizens it doesn't matter whether there is an "exemption" or not: a US Citizen may not be denied entry at a land port of entry, period. Their property can potentially be taken but only with legal process and it can't be kept indefinitely without violation of law. If they're wanted for a crime they can of course be a…

CBP will happily dismantle your car and give it back to you in pieces.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#189

Quoted post unavailable.

Fortunately we still vote for our representatives. But I'm sure the US Federal government is interested in your veiled calls for violence.

MTG successfully argued in court that since 1776 is emblazoned over the threshold of the court, that references to the American Revolution are built into our judicial system.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty difficult with 2FA

Why? You'd never register a token with an actually secure 2FA schema (account inaccessible if token inaccessible) with just one device. Back up your 2FA/MFA.

I print backup codes where available, but some providers don't offer it and instead instruct me to have two devices. Do you maintain 2+ devices with your 2FA codes? Do you carry both devices everywhere? Or just when you need to add a new 2FA code to Authenticator?
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