Live data from Hacker News

FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

xiph.org

111–119 of 119 posts

Re: FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

#111
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I think) They're not saying FLAC is pointless, just that 32 bit audio is. Even music producers record and export at 24bit, 32/64bit is only used for the effects and mixing (because compounding quantization noise and rounding errors is very real). You can't find 32 bit PCM music anywhere, even hifi DVD audio is 24bit/96khz.

> You can't find 32 bit PCM music anywhere Yes you can (not that I think it’s useful): https://ototoy.jp/find/?q=32bit (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32843619 )

With the recent debacle regarding that audiophile vinyl company secretly using digital in the process and nobody noticing, I'm just gonna assume that company could as well just interpolate up to 32bit...

Re: FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

#113
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will choose 32 bits over 24 any day when recording. There's probably no point since your audio interface doesn't produce 32 bit audio anyway. For transient formats it's another story: if a bit of audio gets re-printed multiple times with some processing between renders, then it's beneficial to store it in a DAW-native format (32/64 fp) to avoid quantization or multiple additions of dither noise. For recording you…

My audio interface is a sound devices mixpre 10 which records 32 bits. It also has preamps with -133dbV noise figures. In the practical sense what this means is that I have to be less careful with setting the gain. Typically when setting recording gain you want to go as high as possible so preamp/mic noise doesn't become an issue, but not so high that you are going into the limiter when something unexpectedly loud ha…

I understand where you're coming from and the supposed benefits of a higher dynamic range.

In my experience as a mix engineer working with music, recordings, when made proper, rarely use the full available dynamic range of 24 bits. Often I get tracks recorded too low due to incorrect gain staging. But maybe even more common is just a noisy recording. Poor mains wiring, the length of a recording chain, self-noise of various gear used all contribute to what usually amounts to noise levels much higher than -144dB. And, to be honest, in my line of work it rarely matters until it crosses the 16bit noise floor of -96dB.

What I suppose I mean by all of this and my previous posts is if you're not careful enough to fit into the higher portion of the available dynamic range of 144dB you're just adding more noise regardless of the format used, as in most cases the level of cumulative noise is higher than -144dB. YMMV, of course.

Re: FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not matter… 32bits is 32bits is 32bits.

It absolutely does matter when the compression algorithm is expecting audio in a certain format. If you put something else in those bits you will get worse, or no, compression, and might as well just use zip.

I must be missing something here, but last I checked 32bit float uses about 8bits for metadata —- positive / negative, exponent, etc. — leaving 24bits for signal storage. A 32bit uint can just store the bits of raw data and would allow for denser packing of bits.

You can then do processing with a 64bit float after converting the int’s bits without loss.

Pretty sure every ADC IC I looked at uses integers. During analog processing, using the term “float” is highly disingenuous for an analog waveform, and if an ADC spouts out an int, what float are we talking about here?

I maybe have gone too deep in the weeds reading TI chip manuals and writing drivers for some adc chips for my 8 channel, 32bit, 192kHz recording system, and maybe I missed some nuances in what “32bit” means, but last I checked my audio is pretty solid even after converting the 32bit int to 64bit float during my signal processing.

Audio engineering has been a massive pain because these people use different terms for basic things (great example is “phantom power” — it’s just a 48v, low-current power supply, but good luck finding a simple answer to that useless term) and there doesn’t seem to be any authoritative references to find answers, so I am sure I am missing something here.

Re: FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

#115
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not matter… 32bits is 32bits is 32bits.

You are not going to get good compression reinterpreting a 32-bit float as if the bits were an integer.

What?

Most systems are 64bit now, I wouldn’t be doing signal processing on a system that wasn’t. If my signal has 32bits to work with during capture and my scratch space is 64bits during processing, I can assure you I am not losing any signal during conversion between int / float.

What am I missing?

Re: FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

#116
post #62
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

86dB signal-to-noise.

As noted in my third para :~) Additionally from the product page: "Unprecedented fidelity and detail, 130 dB dynamic range" I've just realized that the product page I linked is extremely unusual for stating a dynamic range value. However this makes sense if you read the papers covering Neumann's dual ADC and pre design of which they were justifiably proud. System D was a mid nineties introduction.

One would only have the SNR worth of content inside those 130db, was the point I think that person was trying to make. Real world physical transducers will have physical limitations of some kind, not all of which must be simultaneously surpassed to encounter said limitation.

Re: FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

#117
post #49
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A microphone, preamp, and ADC that have > 144dB of dynamic range are extraordinarily rare outside of lab equipment. Physically, you are talking about signals measured in the tens of nano-volts (or nano-amps, depending on the mechanism of the microphone).

The latest Zoom field recorders support 32-bit float recording and achieve a wider dynamic range than that (upwards of 210db) by having a circuit with two different ADCs. Also, it's less about the absolute resolution, and more about the ability to boost the gain, often by a lot, while still having a wide and useful dynamic range after the fact.

32bit FLOAT is 24 bits of audio data, and has the unique advantage of being the typical internal processing format of plugins and audio workstations, due to the desire for headroom while processing to avoid artifacts from overflows of various kinds, among other things. (Upsampling is also common before performing calculations that may alias or mirror.)

The stacked ADC approach does allow for a wider overall dynamic range, but I would be skeptical of the physical transducers capabilities in using it all, but the 32-but float format here appears to be largely about lossless transfer to a DAW such that further processing is lossless, as we are not converting from int to float and back.

This format could then be said to be useful as a master media format.

The article in the OP is about a flac containing a 32-bit int audio stream, however, which appears less useful and not at all related to 32-bit float

Re: FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which is a complete scam I can hear the difference between 16-bit audio and 24-bit audio. 16-bit isn't bad at all, but 24-bit is definitely superior. I've worked with 32-bit on digital boards, and I think it is probably over-overkill, but whatever makes someone happy. But one thing I know for certain and beyond all possibility of doubt is that I only have two ears . All that is necessary for 3D sound is stereo spea…

> I can hear the difference between 16-bit audio and 24-bit audio. 16-bit isn't bad at all, but 24-bit is definitely superior. Generally means they got the dithering wrong. (You might be hearing the dithering actually.) How well can you hear quiet music while standing next to a running power drill? 16-bit can represent that accurately. > But one thing I know for certain and beyond all possibility of doubt is that I o…

> Generally means they got the dithering wrong. (You might be hearing the dithering actually.)

Who are "they?" And when was I converting higher bit rates to lower? I have no issue distinguishing between pro-quality 16-bit and 24-bit ADC, no dither involved. This is not exceptional, and many can consistently distinguish between them even not knowing before hand which converter was used. It is theorized that ultrasonics picked up by the higher converter can affect sounds at a lower frequency, which can be heard. 32-bit ADC sounds no different to me than 24-bit, and though I understand the application, I've never needed absurd amounts of dynamic range.

> The problem is that it always sounds like it's coming from the same direction

Once a proper stereo field is created, a listener can not accurately tell from where sound is coming, regardless of head movement. That they falsely believe they can is only due to psychoacoustics: they see a speaker and assume it is the source of the sound. Repeated studies involving arrays of speakers with only two active have confounded listeners who have insisted sound was coming from inactive speakers above and behind them.[1] These studies were performed in a large room with wall treatment, and the listeners were allowed to move around the room (and obviously were not paralyzed to prevent them from turning their heads). Because you know where the speakers are, you will assume sound is coming from them. A stereo field will not collapse if you turn your head, unless the stereo field is only as large as your head or smaller. Your assertion is false.

> But it doesn't matter how many ears you have.

This is ridiculous. If you only had one ear, or were deaf in one ear, you could only hear in mono. This is known as counter-example proving your assertion incorrect on its face.

> The problem is that it always sounds like it's coming from the same direction, because it's premixed. Can't turn yourself around and have the front and back switch, or move your head around to get a better localization.

Again, the reason why you confidently believe you know where reproduced sound is coming from is because you can see your speakers, you know where they are, and obviously, that is where you know sound is being produced. Sound localization is confounded by sounds bouncing off surfaces and reaching one ear or the other, in one example, before those coming directly from speakers. It is impossible to determine if the sound was directly perceived or indirectly perceived, namely because sound is invisible.

If you have a tiny stereo field, what you describe is possible. This is common in DAW workstations set up to maximize space, and this is why professional control rooms are larger and have more than one set of speakers placed at different distances apart from each other and further away from the engineer. IOW, it is the reason medium and far field monitors are necessary to properly mix professionally. Once one or both ears are outside the stereo field, you'll have a different aural effect. But if your stereo field is large enough (which necessarily involves increased sound pressure) and your ears stay within it, turning your head, standing upside down on your head, or turning around will make no difference.[2] Your ability to determine the sound direction is only reinforced by what you see and what you know. If you were blindfolded and did not already know where your speakers were, in a properly treated room and listening within a stereo field, you would not consistently be able to determine where your speakers were nor if you were listening to stereo or surround sound. These beliefs that one can determine sound direction in only a stereo field are engrained due to assumptions and visual cues, and due to the home stereo industry that marketed surround sound for the home. The only way to dislodge these false beliefs is in a full demonstration set up like the studies I have described above. Only when you are certain sound is coming from one speaker and not another, and shown that the speaker you insist is the source of the sound you hear is not connected to anything and not active will it finally click, and you'll recognize the power of psychoacoustics and how you've been fooling yourself all along.

[-1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_illusion

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franssen_effect

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744263/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization#The_cone_of...

Re: FLAC 1.4.0 released – added support for 32-bit audio

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which is a complete scam I can hear the difference between 16-bit audio and 24-bit audio. 16-bit isn't bad at all, but 24-bit is definitely superior. I've worked with 32-bit on digital boards, and I think it is probably over-overkill, but whatever makes someone happy. But one thing I know for certain and beyond all possibility of doubt is that I only have two ears . All that is necessary for 3D sound is stereo spea…

> All that is necessary for 3D sound is stereo speakers. To be clear, with only 2 speakers sound can be mixed to seem like it is coming from any direction the engineer desires, left, right, top, bottom, front, back, and everywhere in between. Sure, if you want to sit perfectly still in a tiny spot this will work. And don't even think about trying to move closer to that one instrument you hear coming from the rear lef…

You are describing a synthetically small stereo field, which is common in DAW setups, and the reason professional control rooms are larger and proper mixing requires medium and far field monitors. If the stereo field is large enough such that in turning your head or walking around neither ear leaves the stereo field, in an enclosed room with reflective surfaces, when blindfolded or if unknown dummy inactive speakers are displayed, accurate sound localization is confounded. You only "know" where sound is coming from because you can see your speakers, and psychoacoustics does the rest. See my comment above.
Post reply on HN