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Countersteering

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Re: Countersteering

#131

Post by slackersc »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

I think your second point is actually dangerous advice and it's one of the reasons I prefer Nick Ienatsch's book [1] and the Yamaha Champions [2] school to Keith Code/CSBS. You don't want to be adding throttle and lean angle at the same time and accelerating through a turn gives you less options to deal with mid-corner surprises. You can add throttle as you stand the bike up and drive out of the corner.

Even on the road it's safer to trail the front brake into corners and keep weight on the front tire. Keeping the front suspension compressed will also make the bike turn better. None of the fast guys ride the way Code describes [3]. You can see Marc brake all the way to the apex with zero throttle.

[1] https://www.amazon.com.au/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Co... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvrgn5akOm4 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3DTWq0QV8

Re: Countersteering

#132

Post by balfirevic »

pessimizer wrote: post #109
HPsquared wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the second point (the need to maintain light acceleration) I'd always thought this was more to counteract engine braking - if there is engine braking, that is more demand on the rear tyre, kind of like applying the brake - which takes up a bit of the "available" friction that could be used for cornering.

I always thought that it's simply because as you turn left/right, the bike will fall to the left/right, and the acceleration delivers an outward force that levers the bike up against the friction of its tires (and disappears once the bike is vertical) i.e. the same thing that keeps bikes vertical and straight by themselves as long as they're getting power. That being said, I'm a rider not a thinker.

> and the acceleration delivers an outward force that levers the bike up against the friction of its tires

That force is there even if the bike turns at constant speed.

Re: Countersteering

#133

Post by w10-1 »

Countersteering as a concept is also use in flying (i.e., not just single-track vehicles on the ground). It's always required to stop a turn, and may be required to maintain a constant (steep) turn, depending on the plane geometry.

But in flying and in riding motorcycles, it's dangerous to fly/ride by thinking, e.g., "counter-steer before the turn". It all depends on you and the machine, and there are other ways to do things.

For example, throwing your weight around also changes the center of gravity. On a dirt bike, sliding friction can enable you to be lower than you would otherwise, and sliding acceleration can help you be higher.

The question is what happens in the inevitable case you get it wrong. In dirt if you're low while accelerating and start to high-side, typically you'll instinctively drop the throttle, which is the right thing. On a road bike you want to have some degrees of freedom left both in how low your body is and how much you're asking of the tires, so if you're too low you can in-steer (taxing the tires more) without losing road grip.

So it's great to plan by thinking, but in a moment of hard riding/flying, it's much more important to feed everything through the cerebellum and not the cerebral cortex, and to have margins for responding to dynamic instability that track instinctive responses. I.e., actually practice racing and aerobatics.

Re: Countersteering

#134

Post by taylodl »

I loathe the term "countersteering" preferring to use the term "push steering" instead. Rather than think "turn left to go right" think "push right to go right" or "push left to go left."

People say it's the same as on a bicycle but not really. On a bicycle you can easily use your body weight to lean. The bicycle is light and your speeds are low. Motorcycles weigh several hundred pounds and go at speeds unthinkable on a bicycle. It's a completely different ballgame and push steering is essential to not getting yourself killed.

To wit, if you're running wide on a right-hand corner you'd better be pushing on that right handlebar to tighten your turn so you don't drift into the lane with oncoming traffic and experience a deadly crash. That's why motorcycle courses stress the importance of push steering. The good news is it's very intuitive once you've done it a few times.

Re: Countersteering

#135

Post by dj_mc_merlin »

tnelsond2 wrote: post #123
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible a…

Not sure I follow. What I do is let gravity push me downhill and I keep one foot in front of the other and I gallop, hopping down the hill but always keeping a leading foot so that I never have to do the full movement of switching legs like in normal walking. Because I don't switch my feet I can keep up faster than I can run and I don't slip because I always have 2 feet on the ground at a time and it's kinda like sur…

Yep, that's what I was talking about. The leading foot does switch for me but only depending on what needs to be stepped on, not a normal walking switch.

Re: Countersteering

#136

Post by rcxdude »

abalaji wrote: post #88

There is a surprising lack of pixar Cars references in this thread... it's where I was first exposed to counter-steering https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUWtaw5Fra8

While it's sometimes called countersteering and is superficially similar (you wind up steering in the opposite direction to your intended turn), the mechanics are quite different: it's not a technique you'll use in normal driving and you wind up steering into the bend sharply and then away from it, as opposed to steering away from the bend and then into it.

Re: Countersteering

#137

Post by tnelsond2 »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #135
tnelsond2 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I follow. What I do is let gravity push me downhill and I keep one foot in front of the other and I gallop, hopping down the hill but always keeping a leading foot so that I never have to do the full movement of switching legs like in normal walking. Because I don't switch my feet I can keep up faster than I can run and I don't slip because I always have 2 feet on the ground at a time and it's kinda like sur…

Yep, that's what I was talking about. The leading foot does switch for me but only depending on what needs to be stepped on, not a normal walking switch.

Yeah being very loose is ideal. I run/hop like a marionette.

One of these days I want to try the Gloucestershire cheese race.

Re: Countersteering

#138

Post by interstice »

MarkMarine wrote: post #110
interstice wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s even more complex than that - motorcycle tyres have different curvature at the front and the rear, it’s pretty hard to get to the edge at the front even with moderate braking but I have routinely run to or off the edge of various rears on track days. There’s also fun things like the bikes geometry gets longer or shorter under acceleration or braking to help with turning and grip. The physics is quite beautiful (…

Using the whole front is there for some pretty extreme trail braking, more than I put into the front that’s for sure. I do have a comfortable 1-2 day use period for a rear on my R6, while I kind of squint at the front and figure I better replace it every couple rears I almost never feel it getting used up. Do you live in the Bay Area? What org do you ride with? I’m with PTT for track days and AFM for racing.

Sadly I am in Auckland NZ! Our race tracks are getting closed down, it’s quite a sad time.
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