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Countersteering

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: Countersteering

#111

Post by MarkMarine »

codingdave wrote: post #85

I have never grokked written or verbal explanations of countersteering. I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles for almost 5 decades now - I do it all the time in practice. But explaining it makes it weird.

This is actually why this needed to be written, new riders on a race track come with a malformed understanding of how the bike works, and when you need to put more force into the bike to turn at higher speed, they don’t know where to put the force. People think that just leaning does the work, but you can try to turn a motorcycle with your hands off the bar and see how that works… basically you just go straight.

The part I find amazing is you understand how to make this work in a part of your brain that apparently doesn’t communicate with the conscious understanding part. People can ride a motorcycle and not even understand how to make it turn, yet they do it.

Re: Countersteering

#112

Post by d1l »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #101
d1l wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twist of the wrist is fantastic, as is the video, which can be found on YouTube. Agree with everything you said, and I'm curious: what do you ride? I've been tracking a mostly-stock R6 for the last 5 years, A the last 3 or 4. One thing I thought I'd add is that with motorcycles, the rider is a significant fraction of the total mass, so your position on the bike can greatly affect the center of gravity. You see guys l…

>> what do you ride I sold my S1000XR (first generation) and was all set for a Tuono V4 but i really didn't get on with it. I'm 6'3 so a 2nd gen S1000XR looks likely next. I'd love a shot on the new Triumph TE-1 when it launches though. >> I've been tracking a mostly-stock R6 I think that's the most popular bike here too, if i had space for 2 bikes, i'd do the same as you and have an R6 for track.

Nice, I see some rsv4's at the track, still waiting to see a new rs660 so I can bombard the owner with questions. The new R7 is supposed to be "fun" to track, as it's got the more user-friendly mt07 engine, but its nothing compared to the scream of the 6. When mine inevitably blows up I'll probably be looking between the aprilia or maybe a gsxrr.

Re: Countersteering

#113

Post by benj111 »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #83
CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible a…

Living in a hilly area, this is the way to go down hills. If you tense you get tired going down, aswell as up hills.

Re: Countersteering

#114

Post by benj111 »

potamic wrote: post #93
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible a…

Sounds interesting, but I'm unable to picture what you're saying. Are there any videos I can watch about this technique?

Walking is basically controlled falling. This is basically an extension of that. You just let one leg go in front of the other like you were walking, rather than taking singular steps.

Re: Countersteering

#115

Post by ahartmetz »

koonsolo wrote: post #66
CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

Motorcycle physics are very interesting to say the least. My favorite is this: What happens to the suspensions when you brake? Front one compresses while the back one extends. That one was easy. Now this: What happens to the suspensions when you accelerate? Front one extends while the back one... also extends. Motorcycles are specially designed to have this last behavior.

Something I've only read about... Earlier BMW motorcycles with shaft drive were infamous for their "Gummikuh" ("rubber cow") behavior, rising strongly in the rear when accelerating. The shaft drive was later modified to reduce that.

Re: Countersteering

#116

Post by MarkMarine »

andrewsuzuki wrote: post #97
codingdave wrote: post #85

I have never grokked written or verbal explanations of countersteering. I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles for almost 5 decades now - I do it all the time in practice. But explaining it makes it weird.

A normal stable turn requires a lean in the same direction. If you turn the bars to the left but don't lean to the left, you will topple over to the right. Countersteering is purposefully turning to the left and NOT leaning to the left, causing you to begin to topple over to the right...but then you quickly save it by turning the bars to the right. Now you are turning and leaning to the right.

At speeds faster than parking lot speeds, that is incorrect. You purposely push the left bar away from you to turn left. That's all you do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew

Check it out.

Re: Countersteering

#117

Post by potamic »

white_dragon88 wrote: post #103
potamic wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds interesting, but I'm unable to picture what you're saying. Are there any videos I can watch about this technique?

No video will show the subtle differences. The principle is that you would let the physical aspects of the ride flow through your bike to minimise shock and allow the bike to more naturally ‘fall’ through the path that will take it the easiest. An good analogue would be jet skiing. If you just hold on for dear life and hope for the best, you will get a very sore back. A lot about doing it right is letting the waves d…

Are they talking about hiking or biking?

Re: Countersteering

#118

Post by Johnsorc »

From my days of racing downhill mtb and cycling this came naturally to me when I first got on a moto. I still have a really hard time describing the how, but can execute it intuitively. It's a really strange concept to wrap my head around.

Re: Countersteering

#119

Post by tnelsond2 »

js2 wrote: post #99
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible a…

Kilian Jornet running downhill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBxvn9yEdlY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7agNyuN39E

My technique for running downhill. Not sure why nobody else uses it.

I gallop like a deer and I can go incredibly fast by basically keeping one foot constantly in front and never switching it and hopping down hills. I don't have to take a full step and I always have two feet or no feet on the ground so it's impossible to slip.

https://youtu.be/lHcZo5mrv2k

Re: Countersteering

#120

Post by wanderingmoose »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

Keith Code (author of twist of the wrist) has a bike with fixed handle bars that he lets you ride as part of his superbike track/race school. It is really eye opening on how little control you have without countersteering.

Here's a vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA

His school: https://superbikeschool.com/

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