Countersteering • Hacker News Board

Re: Countersteering

#91

Post by jeffbee » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #85

I have never grokked written or verbal explanations of countersteering. I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles for almost 5 decades now - I do it all the time in practice. But explaining it makes it weird.

I think an easy way to at least prove to yourself that it is happening is to ride a bicycle with just one finger of one hand in a straight line, then very slightly push the bar with that finger. Pushing to the right (ie with your left index finger) will initiate a left lean and turn. It’s more obvious that way than with a normal grip.

The simplest way to understand it is to consider that if the bike did not do this, it would be unrideable. The bike tends to return to center. If turning the wheel right initiated a right turn, the bike would just fall over.

Re: Countersteering

#92

Post by tbyehl » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 3:01 PM UTC

mellavora wrote: post #32

arghwhat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper response depends on the type of traction loss. What you describe is the appropriate response for understeering, but will amplify oversteering. Although to be fair, considering how common front wheel drive is these days, understeering is what us most likely to occur, and the proper response of following the failure is less intuitive than counter steering. On a "proper" 4x4 sliding, increasing throttle will…

> increasing throttle will often straighten the path of the vehicle irrespective of current steering input "when in doubt, gas it out"

"Full throttle will either solve the problem or end the suspense."

Re: Countersteering

#93

Post by potamic » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 3:12 PM UTC

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #83

CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible a…

Sounds interesting, but I'm unable to picture what you're saying. Are there any videos I can watch about this technique?

Re: Countersteering

#94

Post by deltarholamda » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #81

synu wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the Netherlands kids learn to ride a bike on little two wheeled wooden bikes, that they start to “glide” on. It’s a nice system that gets them right into learning how a real bike behaves.

Those are the "balance bikes" GP are referring to; definitely a much better system than training wheels. (One of my 2-year-old's favorite activities ATM is riding his balance bike at a skate park.) I've heard people say that even when teaching adults to ride a bike, it's best to have them just push themselves by their feet (as you would on a balance bike) until they learn how the bike moves, then tell them to use the…

I did this for my kids, only I took the pedals off the bike so they could get full use of their legs. A balance bike without having to buy a separate bike.

Re: Countersteering

#95

Post by deelowe » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

HPsquared wrote: post #33

arghwhat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper response depends on the type of traction loss. What you describe is the appropriate response for understeering, but will amplify oversteering. Although to be fair, considering how common front wheel drive is these days, understeering is what us most likely to occur, and the proper response of following the failure is less intuitive than counter steering. On a "proper" 4x4 sliding, increasing throttle will…

Even understeering, to recover grip you need to reduce the load (slip angle) on the front tyres- by straightening the wheel a bit. Not turning the wheel even further. So the same general principle applies, but it's less urgent when understeering as it's a kind of 'stable' situation.

Explanations help somewhat, but there needs to be some intuition for these principles to be applied effectively. I highly recommend going to a few auto cross events truly get it. Learning what it's like when "steering gets light" and how "turning into the skid" recovers it is really something you need to learn by feel.

Re: Countersteering

#96

Post by ho_schi » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

freetime2 wrote: post #50

ho_schi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also Sheldon Brown: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html The writings of Sheldon Brown are somewhat a Wiki for cyclists teaching maintenance and riding a bicycle. I've learned riding a bicycle as child but the theory and maintenance guides are useful to know. If you are German you may also appreciate Wikipedalia: https://wikipedalia.com

> Skilled cyclists use the front brake alone probably 95% of the time I am skeptical about this claim. Here’s a recent video by a former pro on the subject of braking, for example, and he is squeezing on both brakes at the same time in most of the shots. [1] He does say that the front brake can be squeezed a lot harder, though, and is source of most of your braking power. Even in the places where Brown says you shoul…

Thank you! You're right with the critique. The number is wrong and an exaggeration. To be fair, Brown did focus on emergency breaking and the paragraph lists situations for the rear break.

The video is good and states that the front brakes matters most for emergency breaking. Breaking well planed before a turn, because breaking in turn can lead to loose of traction and result in skidding. Brown mentions this also as situation for gently breaking with front- and back break together to avoid skidding. I think most important is the rule to break gently in regular situations.

As you I'm breaking often with the rear break only, on bumpy roads or when I need little deceleration. And often with both! Sometimes also in change during step descents (allow cool down of front break). I once didn't notice the bumpy surface (asphalt looked well) before a turn on a step decent and used only the front break, it was horrible because lack of deceleration and every bump was a hit into the handlebar.

Re: Countersteering

#97

Post by andrewsuzuki » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #85

I have never grokked written or verbal explanations of countersteering. I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles for almost 5 decades now - I do it all the time in practice. But explaining it makes it weird.

A normal stable turn requires a lean in the same direction. If you turn the bars to the left but don't lean to the left, you will topple over to the right.

Countersteering is purposefully turning to the left and NOT leaning to the left, causing you to begin to topple over to the right...but then you quickly save it by turning the bars to the right. Now you are turning and leaning to the right.

Re: Countersteering

#98

Post by kevstev » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #79

Uptrenda wrote: post #10

I'm now imagining some poor child's dumbfounded look as a HackerNews parent explains how to ride a bike by breaking down countersteering. lmaoo

Haha, you something like counter steering just being a monoid in the category of endofunctors? :P Hopefully after kids "just learn" how to ride, watching a video of someone counter steering in slow motion and then trying to visualise themselves doing it enough to get it. It is worth thinking about and then deliberately practicing though as nailing it can really help you reduce turning circle needed on both a motorbik…

I actually really struggled with this when taking a class learning to ride a motorcycle. The instructor kept trying to instill this over complicated explanation and mnemonics like "go left look left push left lean left" and IMHO it required way too much mental processing to just say "turn like a bicycle" Eventually after a few go rounds I realized he was just trying to explain that process and I just discarded all of the explanations and just did what came naturally (aside from the look part- that's actually immensely powerful and useful- just look where you want to go and avoid "target fixation").

Some things, just doing them and getting a natural feel is 100x if not more, useful than tons of theory and explanations.

Re: Countersteering

#99

Post by js2 » Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 3:21 PM UTC

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #83

CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible a…