Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Countersteering

en.wikipedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 138 posts

Re: Countersteering

#101

Post by CraigJPerry »

d1l wrote: post #63
CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

Twist of the wrist is fantastic, as is the video, which can be found on YouTube. Agree with everything you said, and I'm curious: what do you ride? I've been tracking a mostly-stock R6 for the last 5 years, A the last 3 or 4. One thing I thought I'd add is that with motorcycles, the rider is a significant fraction of the total mass, so your position on the bike can greatly affect the center of gravity. You see guys l…

>> what do you ride

I sold my S1000XR (first generation) and was all set for a Tuono V4 but i really didn't get on with it. I'm 6'3 so a 2nd gen S1000XR looks likely next. I'd love a shot on the new Triumph TE-1 when it launches though.

>> I've been tracking a mostly-stock R6

I think that's the most popular bike here too, if i had space for 2 bikes, i'd do the same as you and have an R6 for track.

Re: Countersteering

#102

Post by sushiburps »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

It's fascinating that the explanation of a countersteer is counterintuitive, but most people pick up on it without being taught. Kids learning to ride a bicycle will naturally add the countersteer before a turn.

Re: Countersteering

#103

Post by white_dragon88 »

potamic wrote: post #93
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible a…

Sounds interesting, but I'm unable to picture what you're saying. Are there any videos I can watch about this technique?

No video will show the subtle differences. The principle is that you would let the physical aspects of the ride flow through your bike to minimise shock and allow the bike to more naturally ‘fall’ through the path that will take it the easiest.

An good analogue would be jet skiing. If you just hold on for dear life and hope for the best, you will get a very sore back. A lot about doing it right is letting the waves do what they have to do, and making subtle corrections to ensure your path is optimal but taking into account the obstacles it’s encountering

Re: Countersteering

#104

Post by amalcon »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #75
Uptrenda wrote: post #10

I'm now imagining some poor child's dumbfounded look as a HackerNews parent explains how to ride a bike by breaking down countersteering. lmaoo

It's worse than that even... Historically, (before balance bikes) a lot of kids would progress from having training wheels all the way down, to two-wheeled dynamics. The problem is, having training wheels all-the-way-down means you have a tricycle, which doesn't have countersteering dynamics. So as soon as you pull the wheels up, they have to totally forget what they've learned.

I don't think I've ever heard of training wheels at literal ground level when the bike is upright -- what would even be the point? It's basically a tricycle, like you say.

When I've seen them, they've been at least an inch or two above, which (coupled with telling the child that the game is to prevent them touching the ground) would seem to mitigate this problem while still effectively preventing falls.

Re: Countersteering

#105

Post by pessimizer »

thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #44
KennyBlanken wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your car understeering or oversteering is not countersteering. Steering inputs to correct for understeer and oversteer are not countersteering. Countersteering is specific to two-wheeled vehicles. Please read links before commenting...

Did you see where the link says: >For the technique with a similar name used in automobiles, see Countersteering (Automobile). ?

The sentence that makes it completely clear that the article isn't about what is often called "countersteering" in automobiles?

Re: Countersteering

#106

Post by pessimizer »

cdot2 wrote: post #64
ehnto wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MSF isn't mandatory though is it? Also, statistics suggest a lot of the motorcyclists who get killed are doing it without a license anyway (or registered bike, or helmet...).

It is for some states. I know here in Texas it is.

I don't think it is in Illinois, although the state sends people to MSF class "graduations" to do official tests.

Re: Countersteering

#107

Post by Asooka »

superice wrote: post #2

This Veritasium video touches upon the same phenomenon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac

Sadly it's wrong. My gripe with it is that it presents countersteering as necessary, while it's just a technique to more quickly initiate a turn.

Basically by steering right while leaning left, then snapping the handlebars to the left, you can change your centre of gravity relative to the bike's faster than you can just by leaning left. When leaning your body left you also naturally push the handle bars right which produces a countersteer as well even if you didn't mean to.

However, you can easily observe a bicycle steering without first initiating a countersteer. The easiest is if you just push it and let it coast by itself. It will naturally start leaning one way and continue turning that way until it falls on the ground without any countersteering. Another way is, if its geometry permits, to ride it without holding on to the handlebars - you can see you're steering left and right by shifting your weight on only the seat without any countersteering. Or you can consciously avoid doing a countersteer and make turns that way - noticeably less quickly than if you do countersteer, but quite possible.

Another proof would be the fact that monowheels work and can be steered. You cannot countersteer a monowheel, yet it steers just fine. Look also at Destin's backwards bicycle experiment - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0 . I really don't think you can countersteer that thing anyway, yet it steers just fine.

I think if Veritasium had given people more time (days? weeks?) to adjust to the bike, they would learn to make turns without countersteering. I know it took me a while to learn to do it when I first heard about countersteering and thought to experiment.

Finally, I really hate the word "countersteering". It is very misleading and logically impossible. Obviously you can't have to turn left before turning right, because then you have to first turn right in order to turn left in order to turn right, but you have to first turn left in order to turn right in order to turn left in order to turn right... ad nauseam. A much better term would be "counterjerk" - you're jerking the bike to the right so that you can more quickly shift your centre of gravity left and make a sharper left turn.

Re: Countersteering

#108

Post by mrnaught »

codingdave wrote: post #85

I have never grokked written or verbal explanations of countersteering. I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles for almost 5 decades now - I do it all the time in practice. But explaining it makes it weird.

This! I think people from south east Asia can relate to this. I’ve been an active rider for over a decade before coming to US. When counter steering was taught in the motorcycle safety program,it felt counter intuitive. One reason I can think of is back in my home country max speeds were under 50mph where you dont have to counter steer that much.

Re: Countersteering

#109

Post by pessimizer »

HPsquared wrote: post #23
CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

On the second point (the need to maintain light acceleration) I'd always thought this was more to counteract engine braking - if there is engine braking, that is more demand on the rear tyre, kind of like applying the brake - which takes up a bit of the "available" friction that could be used for cornering.

I always thought that it's simply because as you turn left/right, the bike will fall to the left/right, and the acceleration delivers an outward force that levers the bike up against the friction of its tires (and disappears once the bike is vertical) i.e. the same thing that keeps bikes vertical and straight by themselves as long as they're getting power. That being said, I'm a rider not a thinker.

Re: Countersteering

#110

Post by MarkMarine »

interstice wrote: post #17
CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

It’s even more complex than that - motorcycle tyres have different curvature at the front and the rear, it’s pretty hard to get to the edge at the front even with moderate braking but I have routinely run to or off the edge of various rears on track days. There’s also fun things like the bikes geometry gets longer or shorter under acceleration or braking to help with turning and grip. The physics is quite beautiful (…

Using the whole front is there for some pretty extreme trail braking, more than I put into the front that’s for sure. I do have a comfortable 1-2 day use period for a rear on my R6, while I kind of squint at the front and figure I better replace it every couple rears I almost never feel it getting used up.

Do you live in the Bay Area? What org do you ride with? I’m with PTT for track days and AFM for racing.

Post reply on HN