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Countersteering

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: Countersteering

#81

Post by gwd »

synu wrote: post #80
Enginerrrd wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that even... Historically, (before balance bikes) a lot of kids would progress from having training wheels all the way down, to two-wheeled dynamics. The problem is, having training wheels all-the-way-down means you have a tricycle, which doesn't have countersteering dynamics. So as soon as you pull the wheels up, they have to totally forget what they've learned.

Here in the Netherlands kids learn to ride a bike on little two wheeled wooden bikes, that they start to “glide” on. It’s a nice system that gets them right into learning how a real bike behaves.

Those are the "balance bikes" GP are referring to; definitely a much better system than training wheels. (One of my 2-year-old's favorite activities ATM is riding his balance bike at a skate park.)

I've heard people say that even when teaching adults to ride a bike, it's best to have them just push themselves by their feet (as you would on a balance bike) until they learn how the bike moves, then tell them to use the pedals whenever they feel ready.

Re: Countersteering

#82

Post by dwringer »

exDM69 wrote: post #46
jpe90 wrote: post #9

When you lose traction in your car from rain or snow, your instinct is probably to countersteer, but you should instead steer into the turn and countersteer when you regain control. I can't remember if they actually taught that in driving school, but my dad had me deliberately lose traction repeatedly in a parking lot in the snow to get the hang of it. It saved my life a few times because I was a reckless idiot as a…

The article was about bicycles and motorcycles, not opposite lock countersteering in a car. I don't know what exactly you mean by "losing traction" (understeer or oversteer) but your advise does not sound correct to me. But when you get into an oversteer situation in a car, the aligning moment acting on the tyre contact patch will automatically counter steer the front wheels to the outside corner (assuming the fronts…

What you describe is what we were taught in drivers' ed as "steer into the direction of the skid". If your back end is whipping out (oversteer) then turn to the outside (the direction the wheels are skidding). If your front end is lagging into a turn (understeer) turn again toward the outside, which is the direction the wheels are skidding and will straighten them out to regain traction.

Maybe that's what OP meant by "into the turn" (although as you point out, that is actually toward the outside of the turn).

Re: Countersteering

#83

Post by dj_mc_merlin »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars.

I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible angles and can bend at near 90 degree angles. I usually get down very quickly and without fuss, whereas the slower more deliberate method tends to produce bigger falls. You tense up more when you're going down like that, and are more likely to produce uncontrolled fall, which is what kills you. If you can control your fall (throw yourself lightly at a patch that will stop you quickly and not injure you) and go a bit limp to disperse energy quickly, you can fall a lot more than most people but get injured less. I learned this technique from skateboarding. The idea is to learn to do a controlled fall whenever you're in danger into a safe area, rather than possibly risk an uncontrolled fall.

I've been called an idiot for doing this but I have never broken a bone nor had significant injury while hiking.

Anyway, my point is, sometimes just letting the movement flow naturally is the correct thing to do, even if it means the speed involved/perceived danger is higher.

Re: Countersteering

#84

Post by RileyJames »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

A twist of the wrist. Great to see it show up here. The only instruction I took before I bought a bike and rode 6000km to the uyuni salt flats. With near zero experience, that film pretty much saved my life.

Re: Countersteering

#85

Post by codingdave »

I have never grokked written or verbal explanations of countersteering. I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles for almost 5 decades now - I do it all the time in practice. But explaining it makes it weird.

Re: Countersteering

#86

Post by moolcool »

robust-cactus wrote: post #77

https://youtu.be/ZpV2Bg-WX0w This visual demonstration was helpful for me!

The video says "by many bike riders"-- actually all! The only way to steer a motorcycle (or bicycle) at speed is to countersteer, even if you don't realize you're doing it

Re: Countersteering

#87

Post by intortus »

codingdave wrote: post #85

I have never grokked written or verbal explanations of countersteering. I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles for almost 5 decades now - I do it all the time in practice. But explaining it makes it weird.

Torque clockwise to lean more toward the left. Torque counter-clockwise to lean more toward the right. The bike follows a radius proportional to its lean angle.

Re: Countersteering

#89

Post by Gravityloss »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #83
CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible a…

That's also how you move down on slippery icy slopes.

Re: Countersteering

#90

Post by tbyehl »

agurk wrote: post #62

I got a new (to me) motorcycle this year for a long trip I was planning and one of the things that surprised me was how much countersteer it needed to navigate tight mountain turns. I could definitely feel it in my arms at the end of each day. A few thousand kilometers into the trip I changed the front tyre as it had hit the wear bars and was amazed how completely it changed the handling of the bike. Instantly I stop…

A noticeable reduction in steering effort and weight shifting sounds like the new tire was inflated a few PSI higher than the old. Every motorcycle I've owned takes the corners MUCH easier with 2-3 more PSI in front than the manual states.
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