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Countersteering

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: Countersteering

#51

Post by yial »

engineer_22 wrote: post #43
mort96 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it literally saves lives". Anyone who rides a single-track vehicle will instinctively do it any time they turn. Do you mean that having a more conscious relationship with how you countersteer when turning can help keep control in particularly difficult turns?

I have been riding a bicycle all my life, so I suppose that I was counter steering unconsciously. I recently started riding a motorcycle and the experience is quite a bit different because it takes force and conscious effort to turn the bars on a machine weighing several hundred pounds. I think that people try to turn with their bodyweight instead of steering inputs if they don't know any better.

I’m not sure what motorcycle you have, but when steering properly most I have owned have been effortless to turn when “pressing”. (That being said I had a 1981 XS400 that someone had put some pretty silly bars on that felt like a jumping rock to turn)

Re: Countersteering

#52

Post by ehnto »

thefz wrote: post #22

In mountain biking where you turn more by leaning the bike and rotating the hips, it is very evident that briefly steering by rotating the handlebar to the opposite direction points the head tube of the frame right into the turn, and then it's just a matter of straightening the handlebar and leaning into the corner.

I think the hips is mostly about the ergonomics of getting the right weight distribution for the bike, but the countersteering is the same. lean the bike over with the opposite steering input, and the whole situation leans over (including you!)

Re: Countersteering

#53

Post by ehnto »

wildrhythms wrote: post #30
frankdejonge wrote: post #14

In the Netherlands, countersteering is part of any motorbike practical exam. This is not standard in a lot of companies, but it is such an essential skill. It literally saves lives.

How does this happen? In the U.S. we have the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF) which teaches a basic motorcycle riding course, and can give you a certificate for a motorcycle endorsement on your state license. One of their only prerequisites for the course is that you can ride a bicycle, because it guarantees the rider understands countersteering at low speeds before getting anywhere near a motorcycle.

The MSF isn't mandatory though is it? Also, statistics suggest a lot of the motorcyclists who get killed are doing it without a license anyway (or registered bike, or helmet...).

Re: Countersteering

#54

Post by kubanczyk »

mort96 wrote: post #19
frankdejonge wrote: post #14

In the Netherlands, countersteering is part of any motorbike practical exam. This is not standard in a lot of companies, but it is such an essential skill. It literally saves lives.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it literally saves lives". Anyone who rides a single-track vehicle will instinctively do it any time they turn. Do you mean that having a more conscious relationship with how you countersteer when turning can help keep control in particularly difficult turns?

When entering the turn - maybe.

It's different when a novice is already progressing through a long turn and suddenly needs to tighten (obstacle or overshoot). They already feel less safe as soon as the bike is at an angle, and have instinctive tendency to begin straightening it up at even the slightest provocation. This instinct will 99% win with the undeveloped/unconscious countersteering instinct. (What? Point my handlebar at the obstacle?!) So, yes, training it could save their life.

Re: Countersteering

#55

Post by ehnto »

Hamuko wrote: post #40
mort96 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it literally saves lives". Anyone who rides a single-track vehicle will instinctively do it any time they turn. Do you mean that having a more conscious relationship with how you countersteer when turning can help keep control in particularly difficult turns?

> Anyone who rides a single-track vehicle will instinctively do it any time they turn. I've seen videos that suggest otherwise. Not linking it, since the last time I did, I got downvoted to hell and back for it.

You can't turn a bicycle or motorbike without counter-steering, so these people are just not turning their bikes? It's not possible to not countersteer as the bike would lean to the wrong direction and you'd turn the wrong way (since you'd have been initiating a countersteer, afterall). Are you seeing people just manhandle the bars the wrong way in emergencies? I could believe that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac

Re: Countersteering

#56

Post by exDM69 »

sph wrote: post #37
exDM69 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original article is about counter steering in bicycles and motorcycles to initiate a turn, not counter steering (or "opposite lock") in a car (or motorcycle/bicycle) in response to oversteer. That said, they're quite all quite interesting phenomena in vehicle dynamics.

The flick is not about responding to oversteer. It's about using the physics of weight transfer to more easily negotiate a turn. On a rally car, the counterweight is the car itself, on a bike, it's the human.

I guess they have some superficial similarity but the vehicle dynamics are really different. In a scandi flick, the weight transfer is used to unload weight from the outside tyres to make them slip. In two wheel counter steering it's to initiate a balanced lean to the inside. In both cases, the driver turns the steering to the "wrong" direction.

Re: Countersteering

#57

Post by kubanczyk »

yial wrote: post #51
engineer_22 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been riding a bicycle all my life, so I suppose that I was counter steering unconsciously. I recently started riding a motorcycle and the experience is quite a bit different because it takes force and conscious effort to turn the bars on a machine weighing several hundred pounds. I think that people try to turn with their bodyweight instead of steering inputs if they don't know any better.

I’m not sure what motorcycle you have, but when steering properly most I have owned have been effortless to turn when “pressing”. (That being said I had a 1981 XS400 that someone had put some pretty silly bars on that felt like a jumping rock to turn)

It's effortless on a motorbike. On a bike it's effortless squared, a near-undetectable planck-scale force on a handle, or just a body action.

Re: Countersteering

#58

Post by panxyh »

HPsquared wrote: post #23
CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives. There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the fron…

On the second point (the need to maintain light acceleration) I'd always thought this was more to counteract engine braking - if there is engine braking, that is more demand on the rear tyre, kind of like applying the brake - which takes up a bit of the "available" friction that could be used for cornering.

Counteracting engine braking happens already at maintaining speed. Maintaining acceleration is maintaining acceleration, with the obvious effect of moving more weight on the back wheel and shortening the bike.

Re: Countersteering

#59

Post by draven »

frankdejonge wrote: post #14

In the Netherlands, countersteering is part of any motorbike practical exam. This is not standard in a lot of companies, but it is such an essential skill. It literally saves lives.

In France we learn about it, and the exam has a low speed and high speed test. The high speed test ends with either an emergency stop or an obstacle avoidance (simulates a pedestrian crossing right in front of the motorbike for example, the maneuver requires countersteering.)

Re: Countersteering

#60

Post by bborud »

jpe90 wrote: post #9

When you lose traction in your car from rain or snow, your instinct is probably to countersteer, but you should instead steer into the turn and countersteer when you regain control. I can't remember if they actually taught that in driving school, but my dad had me deliberately lose traction repeatedly in a parking lot in the snow to get the hang of it. It saved my life a few times because I was a reckless idiot as a…

> When you lose traction in your car from rain or snow, your instinct is probably > to countersteer, but you should instead steer into the turn and countersteer > when you regain control.

I'm not entirely sure I understand. Perhaps some context is missing?

One key question is: when was this and in what car?

Most modern cars have various forms of stability control systems that try to execute the driver's intent. So for instance my daily driver is vastly different from my 1980s plaything that doesn't have any driver's aids. On slippery surfaces they require completely different approaches to driving when you are on, or over, the grip limit.

If you are trying to work with the stability control system, yes, you probably need to communicate your intent to the car and let it take care of things. But I'm not sure "don't countersteer" is necessarily good general advice because it really, really depends on why/how you lost traction and how the car will react. The only way you can know that is to take it onto a slippery track (or a large open space) and try it out.

Also, stability control systems can (and do) fail. They can shut down due to sensor errors or, if you buy a sports car, there may be an option for shutting them off partially or completely.

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