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European natural gas imports and storage reserves

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Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#241

Post by jopsen »

jltsiren wrote: post #226
jopsen wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't any Russian force driving around in the Baltic states be easy targets for NATO cruise missiles and air power? None of which NATO countries has offered to use in Ukraine. I think logistics by railway would be problematic if NATO allies launched a few thousand cruise missiles.

That's the benefit of Sweden and Finland joining NATO. Air power is of little use if your forces don't have access to the relevant area. The Baltic states are surrounded by Russian bases and air defenses, while NATO bases are far away. Right now, Kaliningrad is effectively a fortress that separates the Baltic states from the rest of NATO. Sweden and Finland give NATO air forces the option to bypass Kaliningrad and op…

There was already Norway, Denmark and Poland fairly close by (close in terms of air travel).

But yes, Sweden and Finland in NATO is nice. Also for the fact that NATO not intervening in aggression against Sweden or Finland is hard to imagine, so getting papers on the marriage is nice for all parties involved.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#242

Post by dnh44 »

anticodon wrote: post #200
wbsss4412 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It wasn't a revolution - it was a coup funded and organized by the EU and USA. I don’t doubt that there was western involvement, just as there was certainly Russian involvement supporting prior administrations. While it can be difficult to discern the true desires of Ukrainians given outside involvement, its very easy to say that the current government in Ukraine is much more democratic than plenty of US Allies in…

> its very easy to say that the current government in Ukraine is much more democratic than plenty of US Allies in other parts of the world, eg the Middle East. What makes you think so? What was/is democratic about Ukraine? How Zelensky, for example, crushed all the opposition parties and media, and even arrested some of his opponents after he came to power? Do you know about that? BTW, here's the video of him before…

I didn't believe the Nazi claims that were being thrown around at first but I found these short documentaries on the BBC Newsnight YouTube channel a while back about the seemingly rather large Neo-Nazi influence in Ukraine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEKQsnRGv7s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6b4ao8gAQ

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#243

Post by type0 »

vel0city wrote: post #224
stoltzmann wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, Russia should form or join an already existing defensive alliance to protect itself against what it considers to be aggressive neighbors. That sounds reasonable to me, just like the neighboring countries doing likewise - joining a pact to defend against Russia.

This exists, its called the Организация Договора о коллективной безопасности or Collective Security Treaty Organization. Its member states include Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, and Tajikistan. It used to include Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Uzbekistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Org...

That organization is functionally defunct

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#244

Post by anticodon »

wbsss4412 wrote: post #210
anticodon wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its very easy to say that the current government in Ukraine is much more democratic than plenty of US Allies in other parts of the world, eg the Middle East. What makes you think so? What was/is democratic about Ukraine? How Zelensky, for example, crushed all the opposition parties and media, and even arrested some of his opponents after he came to power? Do you know about that? BTW, here's the video of him before…

> How Zelensky, for example, crushed all the opposition parties and media, and even arrested some of his opponents after he came to power? Do you know about that? This has been covered in Western press: https://m.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opposition-... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/former-ukraine-presiden... However, I haven’t seen any thing that says _all_ opposition has been banned, do you have…

The big problem is that you, western people, especially people from USA, see the whole situation through the tiny keyhole where your media project whatever bias they want.

You have no means of access to objective or balanced information. You can't read anything about Russia or Ukraine in the original uncensored form. You can't watch any video from Ukraine or Russia without it being carefully selected by somebody and then translated for you.

E.g. you wouldn't be able to ponder when you see videos of Ukrainian soldiers being killed during combat, why seconds before dying they always speak in Russian, how that resonates with Joseph Brodsky poem last lines: https://russianuniverse.org/2017/02/27/joseph-brodsky-on-ukr...

And usually it's you, Western audience that makes blanket statements with no basis, uttering it so arrogantly as you know it all, where you actually know nothing.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#245

Post by dnh44 »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #165
yabqk wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU doesn’t stand a chance against the US: look how they forced us to wage a proxy war against Russia. And now we’re going to buy liquefied gas from them.

> The EU doesn’t stand a chance against the US: look how they forced us to wage a proxy war against Russia. America forced the EU into a proxy war with Russia... by having Russia invade Ukraine? Sounds like somebody has been huffing Russian propaganda.

It's a a reasonable assessment if you accept following three (I think easy to accept) items.

- That the US has a long term goal of preventing a "peer competitor" from arising.

- That the US has a financial and strategic interest in causing the collapse of the Russian Federation.

- The US leadership is capable of intelligent long term thinking (so we have to ignore Trump/Biden).

https://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1346.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard

https://www.dw.com/en/chinas-rise-and-conflict-with-us/a-550...

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/nato-versus-russia-in-u...

A quick quote from the last link sounds like classic US policy to me:

"A much more truly ambitious apparent long-term US ambition seems to have been to instigate the breakup of Russia into smaller manageable countries, paralleling the emergence of nations in eastern Europe after 1989. It could then deal with a reconstructed historical Russia of smaller emerging statelets run by competitive elites at odds with each other. These new polities, anxious for revenues, will then, presumably, be eager to sign lucrative commercial deals with US corporations since the entire region is extraordinarily wealthy in raw material resources."

And if we look at the result of the current crisis (I'll quote myself from a post above):

"- Potential collapse of the Russian Federation and the economic benefits this would bring (for the West)

- Solidifying EU support of NATO

- Increased energy sales to Europe at higher prices

- Increased military sales to NATO countries due to new threat

- Increased budget for "the military industrial complex"

- Further the long term goal of preventing a peer competitor from appearing by both weakening Russia and making the EU more dependant on the US both economically and militarily.

- Mutually beneficial German/Russian cooperation is pretty much dead now so no threat of such an alliance appearing in the future."

I think its pretty well played on the part of the US; nothing to be ashamed about. I'm interested to see what happens next.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#246

Post by wbsss4412 »

anticodon wrote: post #244
wbsss4412 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How Zelensky, for example, crushed all the opposition parties and media, and even arrested some of his opponents after he came to power? Do you know about that? This has been covered in Western press: https://m.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opposition-... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/former-ukraine-presiden... However, I haven’t seen any thing that says _all_ opposition has been banned, do you have…

The big problem is that you, western people, especially people from USA, see the whole situation through the tiny keyhole where your media project whatever bias they want. You have no means of access to objective or balanced information. You can't read anything about Russia or Ukraine in the original uncensored form. You can't watch any video from Ukraine or Russia without it being carefully selected by somebody and…

> You have no means of access to objective or balanced information. You can't read anything about Russia or Ukraine in the original uncensored form.

Does anyone? I never was under any belief that I did.

Excuse my understanding, but is it your assertion that there is unfettered access to uncensored information within Russia??

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#247

Post by Bayart »

stonemetal12 wrote: post #96
Bayart wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has it ? What's the data point, beyond Hitler ? Because History has shown repeatedly and consistently that escalation is reckless and extremely costly.

Native Americans appeased the US till there was nothing left. You don't tend to see many appeasers around because there is nothing left of them.

Native Americans didn't have the means to offer any substantial resistance past the initial stages of colonisation in North America. The point is moot. That's not even getting into the fact that "Native Americans" only exist in the eye of the colonizer. It's not a people, a collective body with agency.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#248

Post by jltsiren »

jopsen wrote: post #241
jltsiren wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the benefit of Sweden and Finland joining NATO. Air power is of little use if your forces don't have access to the relevant area. The Baltic states are surrounded by Russian bases and air defenses, while NATO bases are far away. Right now, Kaliningrad is effectively a fortress that separates the Baltic states from the rest of NATO. Sweden and Finland give NATO air forces the option to bypass Kaliningrad and op…

There was already Norway, Denmark and Poland fairly close by (close in terms of air travel). But yes, Sweden and Finland in NATO is nice. Also for the fact that NATO not intervening in aggression against Sweden or Finland is hard to imagine, so getting papers on the marriage is nice for all parties involved.

The idea is that if Sweden and Finland are not members of NATO, their airspace would be closed to NATO air forces in a NATO–Russia conflict. Then the only way to reach Baltic airspace would be flying past Kaliningrad.

Also, as far as I understand, the combat radius fighter jets is quite short. It's something like 500 to 1200 km, depending on aircraft type and weapons load. Having bases 100 or 200 km closer is already a significant advantage.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#249

Post by KptMarchewa »

js8 wrote: post #228
KptMarchewa wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>keep countries poorer Keep hard authoritarian and totalitarian countries poorer. That's done with multiple countries right now, like North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela. Keep weak authoritarian (on a road to democracy) and democratic nations richer. EU and NATO expansion have been historic successes, with democracy extending farther than ever in the 90s and 00s. Moreover, US policy on India has been largest geopoliti…

How could you tell that Russia was "hard authoritarian" when Putin came to power? I don't think there is a meaningful distinction. I also think it's immoral to intentionally keep any country poor, whether authoritarian or not. I don't know where you live, but I would certainly not want Czechoslovakia to be intentionally kept poor during communist dictatorship just so that some Western politician could stroke his ego…

>How could you tell that Russia was "hard authoritarian" when Putin came to power?

He bombed his own people to come to power. If not then, then in 2008, when he invaded Georgia. Even if not then, then surely 2014 would be the final whistle, right? No. Nord stream 2 was started to be build 4 years later.

>I don't know where you live, but I would certainly not want Czechoslovakia to be intentionally kept poor during communist dictatorship just so that some Western politician could stroke his ego about how is he fighting against communism.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Pomnik_R...

This is Ronald Reagan monument in Warsaw. I, and many Polish people are thankful for his hardline stance he took against our occupiers, meaningfully contributing to crashing their economy, which ultimately made us free.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#250

Post by KptMarchewa »

js8 wrote: post #231
KptMarchewa wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Chomsky made a nice comparison with Palestine. Do Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against Israeli apartheid by shooting rockets at them from Gaza strip? How does that defend Palestine in any way? It's a stupid revenge targeting civilians. If you're so helpless you can't act against military or targeted collaborators then don't do anything at all. I would be the first to suggest to drop support to Uk…

> How does that defend Palestine in any way? Punishes the oppressors, in an attempt to make them stop oppressing. Same reasons why Ukrainians fight back against Russians. And yes, he makes the same case, that Palestinians should instead attempt for a peaceful resolution and negotiation, despite it being extremely difficult (against a much stronger adversary, who doesn't respect them).

>Same reasons why Ukrainians fight back against Russians.

No, Ukrainians are fighting to defeat the aggressors. The main difference is that if they succeed, the occupier will not have anything to say. Palestinian tactics can only succeed by the mercy of the IDF.

In contrast to this, it is symmetric conflict, in which Russia targets citizens by desperation, but those losses are nothing compared to what would happen if they've succeeded.

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