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European natural gas imports and storage reserves

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151–160 of 296 posts

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#151
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If NATO doesn't need nuclear weapons, one more reason to get rid of them. The truth is number of states that endorse nuclear weapons expands as NATO expands, and I see that as a security risk.

The poster you've replied to said >NATO does not need nuclear deterrence again Russia's conventional weapons NATO has more than enough capabilities to destroy Russia's conventional weaponry, but as Russia has nuclear weapons, NATO must also have them to keep parity. Getting rid of nuclear weapons is impossible. Genie's out of the bottle.

> Getting rid of nuclear weapons is impossible.

I disagree. Progress is being made (see ICANW), despite setbacks, some unfortunately coming from "the West", which is supposed to be morally more advanced.

And NATO doesn't need to keep parity with Russia, what for?

I also consider nuclear retaliation strike to be morally dubious. What's the point?

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#152
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are justifying an action by the reaction to it. It's like saying that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is justified by the Ukrainian drones and rockets attacking Russian cities [0] and villages near Ukrainian border. [0] https://t.me/zhest_belgorod/16230

Russia has been invading it's neighbors for centuries. Eastern Europeans do remember that. Joining NATO is not only about the conflict today, it's due to pretty much all generations in the area suffering due to their aggressive neighbor further to the east.

And which neighbor hasn't invaded Russia? Russia remembers that too. In the 1990s there was a perfect chance to turn the page, but it was squandered by the West.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#153
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly every country in Europe has been invading its neighbors for centuries, that’s what normal looks like in Europe. In fact some countries liked invasions so much, that they invaded countries all over the world. Joining NATO is not at all only up to the countries which apply. The US is more or less the game maker, with big countries like Germany, France, the UK etc. also having an important voice. It’s not unexpec…

> Nearly every country in Europe has been invading its neighbors for centuries We don't need to go into that long history. Most of these CEE countries have been invaded by Russia in the last 100 years. > It’s not unexpected that the former Warsaw Pact countries would want to join. It is surprising to see the US being so short-sighted to allow these expansions considering that several of its own diplomats and foreign…

"Not letting e.g. Baltics into NATO/EU would almost certainly mean they have been already absorbed back into Russia. The rest of CEE would be vassalized."

Why?

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#154
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That being said, I hope we plan on no longer depending on Qatar either, because their stability doesn't seem a given either.

Dependence only starts at 10%+ of import shares... Europe is now dependent on Russia and Norway, and slightly dependent on Algeria. Any single other source be it Azerbaijan or LNG from US/Qatar/wherever is too small to cause the price jumps we've seen (and therefore not big enough to matter politically)...

Yes. The idea behind scaling up LNG is that it decouples Europe from any one supplier.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#155
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very ridiculous thing to say.

It’s hyperbolic, but yes, Ukraine is much more similar to Russia than to Western Europe.

Sneak "western" in there and move the goalposts, why don't you.

Ukraine is culturally, geographically and geopolitically a European nation.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#156
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works both ways you know. Europe cannot afford to lose face either. Imagine EU can be blackmailed by Russia! Wouldn't stand a chance against the US or China. The EU clearly believes they can win this fight so why should it withdraw support to Ukraine?

Europe has already been blackmailed by Russia - when they invaded Ukraine last time, in 2014. That's how we know Russia can only be dealt with by force: because we've tried to do it the other way and it failed terribly.

How do you envision "dealing with Russia through force" going down just curiously?

I would imagine there is a similar point of view in many Russians regarding the West (and they can make arguments about abuses and how intrinsically evil the other party is and patriotic jingles and all that too).

So how, on that road, does this end?

I think we know the answer and it really and truly is awful and the end of the world we have previously known.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#157
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very ridiculous thing to say.

It’s hyperbolic, but yes, Ukraine is much more similar to Russia than to Western Europe.

Russia and Ukraine are historically and culturally European. Russian expansion deep into Siberia is a relatively recent phenomenon. Sure, they're not Western European, but that's not what you said in your original comment.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#158
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, our values seem to differ, then. I don't mind Russian expansion unless there are dead people in its wake. I think saving the lives should always trump the national pride.

So just so we're clear. Russia is ok invading another country and killing it's populace. But the west shouldn't fight back incase it kills someone? Why aren't you holding Russia to the same standard as everyone else. Why don't you require them to talk and 'appease' the west rather than invading?

I am holding both to same standard. Russian invasion is of course terrible, and it in fact undermined Russia's own goal of keeping Ukraine neutral, at the very least.

But I think everybody here agrees with that, so what's the point of stressing it? You think Putin listens to my opinion?

Yes, and the West should be careful with military intervention, and consider whether it won't lead to more escalation and more death.

In fact, I think the EU could do more with economic sanctions. AFAIK we still buy oil from Russia.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#159
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very ridiculous thing to say.

It’s hyperbolic, but yes, Ukraine is much more similar to Russia than to Western Europe.

You just moved the goalpost from "European" to "Western European", excluding Eastern Europeans because they're inconvenient to your point.

BTW, most Russians are European, living west of the Urals.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#160
post #107
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when I learned about the Cuban missile crisis as a kid (in America) my initial thought was to ask what moral right the US had in nearly starting a war in order to stop the Soviets from moving their missiles to Cuba when both the USSR and Cuba wanted that. Thankfully for the world saner minds prevailed and a settlement was reached. The soviets turned their ships around and the US removed their missiles from…

And yet, the USA did not invade Cuba or press a regime change after the CMC. There was a negotiated settlement where the USA withdrew their missiles from Turkey, left Castro alone and that settled the issue. NATO never deployed nukes in any of the ex-USSR countries, did not build extensive permanent bases, signed the Russia/NATO founding act and in general tried to accommodate Moscow. There's a world of difference be…

>And yet, the USA did not invade Cuba or press a regime change after the CMC. There was a negotiated settlement where the USA withdrew their missiles from Turkey, left Castro alone and that settled the issue.

No, but they were willing to go to war to prevent the missiles from getting there. Waiting until after would have been too late.

>NATO never deployed nukes in any of the ex-USSR countries, did not build extensive permanent bases, signed the Russia/NATO founding act and in general tried to accommodate Moscow.

There are NATO missile bases in ex-Warsaw Pact countries though (Poland and Romania). Yes they are ostensibly to defend against an Iranian missile attack but the US has a poor record for honesty in its international dealings so I can understand that a potential missile base in Ukraine would cross a lot of red lines for the Russians.

>There's a world of difference between deploying offensive nukes in a neighboring country and allowing countries to join a defensive alliance. That's not to say I am a huge fan of US politics of the 1960's, but the comparison is simply lopsided.

It's easy to argue that the potential nukes in Cuba were defensive to deter any further US invasion attempts. At any rate balance of power I think is a better lens through which to examine these things rather than the ethics of offence and defense because that's actually what drives the decision making.

Likewise calling NATO a defensive alliance is a bit tenuous I think (at least from the American perspective). NATO is controlled by the US and the US is quite aggressive about pursuing its perceived interests.

Over the last 20 years there has been lots of chatter regarding US long term ambitions towards Russia and those ambitions are now being discussed more openly even in mainstream press. For example this article is from yesterday.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/nato-versus-russia-in-u...

>A much more truly ambitious apparent long-term US ambition seems to have been to instigate the breakup of Russia into smaller manageable countries, paralleling the emergence of nations in eastern Europe after 1989. It could then deal with a reconstructed historical Russia of smaller emerging statelets run by competitive elites at odds with each other. These new polities, anxious for revenues, will then, presumably, be eager to sign lucrative commercial deals with US corporations since the entire region is extraordinarily wealthy in raw material resources.

So while I agree that Russia has acted in a paranoid manner vis-à-vis Ukraine/NATO I also think that the paranoia is understandable. Russia has after all been invaded by Western European countries three times in the previous 180 years (I'm not suggesting a military invasion of Russia is on the cards but certainly an economic and cultural one).

From an American perspective I think the US has played their hand very well. By manufacturing this conflict they created a situation where Russia had to choose between allowing further NATO expansion or starting a war which 30 years ago would have been considered a civil war. This results in all sorts of benefits for the US.

- Potential collapse of the Russian Federation and the economic benefits this would bring (for the West)

- Solidifying EU support of NATO

- Increased energy sales to Europe at higher prices

- Increased military sales to NATO countries due to new threat

- Increased budget for "the military industrial complex"

- Further the long term goal of preventing a peer competitor from appearing by both weakening Russia and making the EU more dependant on the US both economically and militarily.

- Mutually beneficial German/Russian cooperation is pretty much dead now so no threat of such an alliance appearing in the future.

Russia it seems only had two bad choices to pick from strategically speaking; a "Kobayashi Maru". We'll never know what would have happened if they had made a different choice but its fascinating to watch all this play out. History is happening in real time!

edit: I'm not the one downvoting you.

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