Live data from Hacker News

Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

waxy.org

331–340 of 356 posts

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#331
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't help but think about the obvious: maybe we should just skip all the drudgery of the natural convulsive progress and ruthless competition, push "accelerate" and get to the mature AGI civilization regime as soon as possible? And there we should just ask our new creative oracle machines the obvious: "devise an understandable minimally invasive method of uplifting our own cognition and extending our biological life…

Pushing "accelerate" costs a great deal. Investors will want a return on their capital: either in money pressed from unequal access to the resulting paradise or in direct power over this new god.

With billions upon billions spent on Big Science, asking the government to spend just 1 billion on an AI training run with guaranteed spectacular results doesn't sound too outlandish.

Why should we pay taxes, if the government won't even train AI for us, given such opportunity?

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#332
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't help but think about the obvious: maybe we should just skip all the drudgery of the natural convulsive progress and ruthless competition, push "accelerate" and get to the mature AGI civilization regime as soon as possible? And there we should just ask our new creative oracle machines the obvious: "devise an understandable minimally invasive method of uplifting our own cognition and extending our biological life…

Current safety techniques are far from sufficient for accelerating AGI progress to be a good thing.

AI safety discourse is mostly still in 2000s, with outdated intuitions informing loads of rigid concepts specific to this time and community.

Large language models trained on cross-entropy loss for next token prediction aren't going to be dangerous per se, even in the limit - simply due to the nature of the objective and the distribution they are set to approximate.

We should make sure these powerful tools don't fall into a small exclusive set of power-hungry interests, though. Transformative tools such as these should benefit all of humanity and let it prosper.

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#333
post #29

I have a degree in Studio Arts in addition to being a software developer (and recently I've started making a lot of creative work with AI). Back when I was in school, there was already plenty of debate about 'what is "Art"'? It's always been hotly contested. Most of my teachers felt that 'technique' was not Art. Others were more purists – life painters, etc – and felt that, no, technique is art. Duchamp poked the art…

> Many clearly think it's a photocopier. As if StableDiffusion is hiding copies of all these works inside. In my latest series of tweets [1] I tried to argue that this is not the case in a less technical way, not sure if I was successful though. For anyone not fluent in Korean, my argument was as follows: Stable Diffusion was trained with a data set composed of about 2.32 billion text-image pairs. The model itself by…

It doesn't compress each image separately. Rather, it compresses its entire training set into one dense region of cartesian space. Each pixel of each training image is in there, scurnched up next to every other pixel of every other training image. It's like sardines in a can, except in thousands (?) of dimensions. You have no hope of calculating how much space it needs for that just by dividing the size of the model by the dimensions of images in pixels, like you did.

You can see that it has memorised all its training material very clearly in its ability to perform style transfer. You can ask it to geneate an image of Pikachu in the style of Vermeer. It can do that because it has memorised images of Pikachu and images by Vermeer in its weird compressed form and it can combine them by finding a point on a gradient between their representation in its memory.

If it didn't have memorised images of Pikachu, or images by Vermeer, how do you guess it could generate images of Pikachu or in the style of Vermeer? It's not magick.

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you mean by "art". There's different sorts of art for different purposes (commercial, fine, etc.), and for many of these sorts of art having an AI make it would be acceptable. But when I think "art" without a qualifier, I think "fine art". And the purpose of fine art, for me, is human communication of ephemeral things that aren't possible to communicate in language. I don't want AI generated fine a…

> It's no longer about another person communicating something significant and human to me. There is a person thinking about the prompt, typing in the prompt, painstakingly selecting the image that matches what they imagined in their head. It just less elitist, as now even a child can create a complex, meaningful and beautiful images by leveraging the essence of human art (compressed into a single ML model). I, for on…

> There is a person thinking about the prompt, typing in the prompt, painstakingly selecting the image that matches what they imagined in their head.

Which does make this a type of art. It just isn't the same form of art as digital painting, the same way painting a tree is not the same type of art as growing and 100 trees, choosing one of them and taking a photograph of it. Photography is definitely an art-form, but it's a different art-form from digital painting, even if the end result of the both of them can be a digital image. Not better or worse, but definitely different.

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many clearly think it's a photocopier. As if StableDiffusion is hiding copies of all these works inside. In my latest series of tweets [1] I tried to argue that this is not the case in a less technical way, not sure if I was successful though. For anyone not fluent in Korean, my argument was as follows: Stable Diffusion was trained with a data set composed of about 2.32 billion text-image pairs. The model itself by…

It doesn't compress each image separately. Rather, it compresses its entire training set into one dense region of cartesian space. Each pixel of each training image is in there, scurnched up next to every other pixel of every other training image. It's like sardines in a can, except in thousands (?) of dimensions. You have no hope of calculating how much space it needs for that just by dividing the size of the model…

> ... sardines in a can ...

Better analogy: suppose you take 10 pieces of A4 paper and scrunch them up into 10 separate balls. Now suppose you scrunch them all up together into one ball. One manifold, taking ten times less space.

In the same way, you don't need to store each pixel of each image separately, or in its own sub-space. Yes? It's really good compression, that's all.

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#336
post #294
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was looking for this reply. Imagine if you needed to hire an artist but 9/10 listings are from alibaba express, full of fake reviews (other nonartist techies commenting on ai art) Or maybe because this is where artists place their portfolios and theres no reason to make ot that much harder to find.

Why would you want to hire an artist whose work is indistinguishable from AI when the AI can work faster and cheaper?

It's not indistinguishable, it's just overwhelmed by volume.

This is like giving someone the needle-in-a-haystack problem and asking "Why do you need the needle when it's indistinguishable from this easily-findable piece of hay?" The hay isn't useful to me, but now you've given me all this hay to sift through before I can find my needle.

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you mean by "art". There's different sorts of art for different purposes (commercial, fine, etc.), and for many of these sorts of art having an AI make it would be acceptable. But when I think "art" without a qualifier, I think "fine art". And the purpose of fine art, for me, is human communication of ephemeral things that aren't possible to communicate in language. I don't want AI generated fine a…

> It's no longer about another person communicating something significant and human to me. There is a person thinking about the prompt, typing in the prompt, painstakingly selecting the image that matches what they imagined in their head. It just less elitist, as now even a child can create a complex, meaningful and beautiful images by leveraging the essence of human art (compressed into a single ML model). I, for on…

> There is a person thinking about the prompt, typing in the prompt, painstakingly selecting the image that matches what they imagined in their head.

True, which makes it more akin to photography. I'm not saying it's "not art" (I'm saying the exact opposite of that), but that it's not art that is of interest to me. Much like my interest in art photography is very limited. Different people have different tastes.

> It just less elitist

I disagree. I think this whole subject is orthogonal to the concept of elitism. Sure, there are certainly art snobs who take an elitist perspective, but they're a very small segment of the art world.

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#338
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it can take a long time to explain certain feelings or ideas you get from art (of any form), and even the attempt is a bit painful or downright impossible. A very low-level example would be a Jackson Pollock or Mondrian painting. It's just a bunch of... stuff but it's extremely visually pleasing compared to just random blotches. There are theories as to why that might be[0] but overall, it would b…

I don't have time to do this very good answer justice, I'm sorry. Let me try and be brief. Some people like Pollocks or Mondrians, some don't, and one thing I'm asking really is that people be honest and not pretend. Such honesty is a kind of rigour. if we accept that certain kinds of art are liked by some people and not by others then questions have to be asked about what I some art is considered good generally (and…

There are bound to be philosophers who have tackled these questions in detail. I can't make any recommendations here as I lack the requisite knowledge, but I do have a proposition that starts with the following question: "What sort of knowledge and information do we rely on independently of the scientific method?"

We can't come up with an exhaustive answer, but what immediately comes to mind would be social skills, gut feelings, "common sense", familiarity with discursive and rhetorical styles, any understanding of the world that has no control group and can probably never benefit from one. Of course, there are plenty of counters to any of these elements. You could say that some people deploy the scientific method in some way with social skills and so on. Or point out the LessWrong community's daily use of Bayes' theorem as they live their lives. Overall, the vast majority of our daily decisions are non-scientific and driven by feelings and intuitions, even if you can apply a top-down conscious modification of your lifestyle to meet goals, better your conditions over the long term etc.

The main conclusion we are left with is that there is a plurality of understanding across human beings that is not quantifiable but decently predictable across an undefined range of subjects. You can make a joke in a certain setting, and expect people to laugh fairly reliably (assuming you are good at this of course). You can talk to HN users and have a strong intuitive sense of what sort of discussion they might want to engage in. A person who is naturally talented at humor will not be rigorous in an explicit sense, but their ability to be funny will be rigorous in its rate of success. That bad art website you linked to (correctly) assumes that there is a sense of what bad art is and that much of the population shares that natural-mixed-with-cultural intuition. They publish the website with the expectation of the audience understanding it.

So essentially, the 'something else' we are looking for can simply be to accept that when we talk about art, we talk about a predictable understanding that is self-hosted across multiple sentient serv... uh, sorry, minds we are likely to interact with, and that can also be reliably understood from scratch. Now, you probably let out a groan at this point because we seem to be essentially back to your initial frustration: a bunch of people whose intentions aren't clear talking about equally unclear things as if they were obvious to their listeners, and being slippery when questioned.

But! the key addition here is the "understandable from scratch". You can expect any human being to understand artistic value to some extent (unlike, say, Terence Tao level math which I am confident I'll never understand), but gaining that understanding will require social and cultural engagement over a period of time on their part. The rigour we seek is something we will have to demonstrate ourselves in the intensity of our efforts to engage with art and its context.

One reason that good art is often defined by its ability to stand the test of time, is because this indicates a solid reliability in getting people across very different eras and mental worlds to engage with it successfully and be willing to 'steelman' the artists' vision.

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now we don't die anymore because of simple infection or other preventable diseases. Many if not all of the things that keep us fed, warm and healthy today are only because we endured technological disruption.

So which is it, 'human condition includes disruption, there is nothing wrong with human conditions and therefore there is nothing wrong with disruption or 'human condition sucks and the only way to fix it is with disruption'? Are you just making it up as you go along? Do you feel the need to justify disruption at any cost?

There is no need to be angry. No, I'm not making it up as I go, I'm saying that the human condition in the long term significantly benefits from technological disruption, even if that's not always true in the short-term. I'm not justifying anything either, I'm just telling you what happened.

Now, we cannot suppress technological disruption either, we can regulate and channel it, but you won't be getting your pastoral society back in which everything stays as is for a few thousand years . I think that's good, you Kay think that's bad, but it just is.

Re: Online art communities begin banning AI-generated images

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which is it, 'human condition includes disruption, there is nothing wrong with human conditions and therefore there is nothing wrong with disruption or 'human condition sucks and the only way to fix it is with disruption'? Are you just making it up as you go along? Do you feel the need to justify disruption at any cost?

There is no need to be angry. No, I'm not making it up as I go, I'm saying that the human condition in the long term significantly benefits from technological disruption, even if that's not always true in the short-term. I'm not justifying anything either, I'm just telling you what happened. Now, we cannot suppress technological disruption either, we can regulate and channel it, but you won't be getting your pastoral…

I am not angry, and I am not even saying you are wrong.

I am just pointing out that the post by halr9000 and your post both try to put disruption on the pedestal, but the arguments are mutually exclusive, and in fact they profess opposite values.

I got a confused, through both posts were made by the same person, hence 'making it up as you go along', sorry about that.

Post reply on HN