Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

abc7chicago.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 175 posts

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#71

Post by radium3d »

Might be different for various lithium batteries but here is what Tesla's Emergency Response Guide recommends:

USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take between approximately 3,000-8,000 gallons (11,356-30,283 liters) of water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request additional water supply early. If water is not immediately available, use CO2, dry chemicals, or another typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available.

NOTE: Tesla does not recommend the use of foam on electric vehicles.

Apply water directly to the battery. If safety permits, lift or tilt the vehicle for more direct access to the battery (see chapter 2). Water may be applied from a safe distance ONLY if a natural opening (such as a vent or opening from a collision) already exists. Do not open the battery for the purpose of cooling it.

Tesla does not recommend placing the vehicle in a large container full of water. The use of a Thermal Imagery Camera or Infrared (TIC or IR) is recommended to monitor battery temperatures during the cooling process. Continue to use water until the battery has reached ambient temperatures or below, indicated by the thermal imagery camera. When utilizing a thermal imaging camera, allow enough time, once the application of water has stopped, to allow for heat within the battery to transfer to the battery enclosure.

https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders

Source (pg 25): https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/Model_3_...

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#72

Post by eunos »

code_duck wrote: post #36
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

Most job applications for positions with any sort of physical aspect (grocery, hardware stores, maintenance) ask whether the applicant can lift 50 lbs (23 kg) over their head.

Including (I heard) semiconductor engineers. Imagine carrying dozens of kg while wearing PPE.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#73

Post by simondotau »

eru wrote: post #32
hackernewds wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefighters struggle lifting 24.5 lbs?

Firefighters aren't 'most people'. I'd guess that most people can lift 12kg. But lifting and wielding ain't the same.

12kg is like a two year old child or a small-to-medium sized dog.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#74

Post by eru »

simondotau wrote: post #73
eru wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefighters aren't 'most people'. I'd guess that most people can lift 12kg. But lifting and wielding ain't the same.

12kg is like a two year old child or a small-to-medium sized dog.

Yes.

12kg shouldn't be much of a problem for most people, if the weight comes in the shape of a dumbbell and stuff ain't on fire.

But wielding a toddler-sized implement awkwardly in front of a fire while you are a bit panicking yourself, might be a struggle for many people.

Especially since you probably never practiced this, and you might even have to hold the thing one-handed, so you can aim with the other hand

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#75

Post by chmod775 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

> A fire extinguisher large enough for a 500wh battery weighs 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that!

Almost everyone can lift that overhead. 90% of men and more than 50% of women can lift a bit more than twice that overhead. It's a common job requirement.

There would have to be something really wrong for an adult to struggle lifting 12kg. That's a large watermelon, and unlike the melon, the fire extinguisher got a handle.

Handheld fire extinguishers top out at that weight - because the vast majority of people will be able to use them and it's better to have two than make them any bigger.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#76

Post by elihu »

lazide wrote: post #53
Arubis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly amateurish take: dumping water on an alkali metal seems like not a great idea (unless you want _more_ fire, in which case by all means go for it)

The good news is, water is cold (generally), doesn't combust (generally), and there is a LOT of it. So spraying water, while it can make it spicier for a bit, allows you to suck away enough heat fast enough that it works okayish. It's the scalable, but not ideal, solution generally. Current guidance is don't bother with anything else, just spray it until the flames stop.

I've wondered if maybe it's possible to pack batteries with a relatively harmless material that undergoes a very energy-intensive phase change. Water's the obvious choice, but it tends to drain away rather than stick around long enough to turn to steam. Maybe there's a better material, or ways to design battery cooling systems so that a burning battery turns into a very efficient steam generator, and thus can be cooled adequately with much less water.

I've also wondered if maybe EV's should be designed with an easy-to-access coolant loop. For instance, maybe you have a fixture you can connect a garden hose to in order to pump cold water through channels in the battery modules for emergency cooling. (Most EVs have liquid cooling already, so this could be in addition to that, or maybe you hook into the existing system and the already-present coolant gets flushed out.)

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#77

Post by [deleted] »

_wldu wrote: post #9

Off topic... What's the best way to easily recycle these batteries? I normally disassemble my old phones and securely dispose of the chips (for my privacy), but the batteries are glued in with a strong adhesive. Just trying to remove them can start a fire. I think most people just throw the old phones in the trash, but I don't like to do that. It's bad for the environment and potentially dangerous to trash workers. I…

[deleted]

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#79

Post by filmor »

bri3d wrote: post #31
londons_explore wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What chemicals are in lithium batteries that are toxic? I was under the impression that while lithium batteries were dangerous due to explosion/flame risk, the actual ingredients weren't particularly toxic?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z Many batteries have LiPF6 electrolytes, so HF is the big one when they combust. And of course the most famous and common battery chemistry is still LiCo - so you've got Lithium salts and Cobalt, which you don't love to see get in ground water. They're not too bad when they don't burn, but once they've burned, all bets are off - there are a lot of nasty byproducts.

LiPF6 = lithium hexafluorophosphate

HF = hydrogen flouride

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#80

Post by robocat »

eru wrote: post #32
hackernewds wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefighters struggle lifting 24.5 lbs?

Firefighters aren't 'most people'. I'd guess that most people can lift 12kg. But lifting and wielding ain't the same.

Also it only takes 10-30 seconds to discharge a 30lb fire extinguisher[1] with no pause. This is not a marathon.

[1] scroll down to table in https://blog.qrfs.com/66-ultimate-guide-to-fire-extinguisher...

Post reply on HN