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Who cares about diversity?

fakenous.substack.com

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Re: Who cares about diversity?

#161

Post by Ekaros »

autokad wrote: post #112
cetahfh14615 wrote: post #81

Part of affirmative action (AA) involves addressing some of the issues specific to american society, I have no clue how diversity is handled outside the US but would love to hear someone else's experience To a certain degree prejudice is ingrained in the US. Not officially in laws, but in attitudes that some (not all) people hold. Not any one specific group of people either, but prejudice across different ethnic grou…

part of the problem with Asian Americans in the application process is that they are treated just as Asians. My Computer Science Program at University of Pennsylvania was about 74% Asian, 20% Indian, and 5% European. There was Problem is, the 74% Asian was almost entirely Chinese born Chinese, and I do feel it hurt the program. They did not want to join groups with non-Chinese people because they preferred speaking C…

Shouldn't the 26% learned Mandarin and thus integrated with this group? I think that would have solved the problem. It is unreasonable for minority to expect the majority to follow their whims.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#162

Post by [deleted] »

stewx wrote: post #63

For an example of this, see this story about Canadian professor and laser scientist Patanjali Kambhampati who was denied for grants because his avowed commitment to mere non-discrimination and merit-based hiring was deemed insufficient. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/minority-professor-deni...

[deleted]

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#163

Post by wnolens »

dbrueck wrote: post #94

My problem with so-called diversity efforts is that they wildly overemphasize a really superficial attribute: skin color. That is, at best, a tenuous proxy for actual diversity and goes against decades of work of the U.S. civil rights movement. There are real benefits to having a diverse group of people in just about every setting, but assessing the level of diversity by noting the range of skin tones present is inef…

It's absolutely insane to me. It's justified racism, and poorly at that. Sometimes I feel like I am living in a dystopian novel.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#164

Post by stuckinhell »

fi358 wrote: post #133
stuckinhell wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks to ESG scores, yes they do. I've been under extreme pressure to get my team up to 40% women/nonbinary/lgbt even if their skills are subpar. It's coming from the top down. However, I do get some leeway from HR on their paper education profile and paper experience. I say "paper", because we already fired several people for basically lying on their resume.

How do the HR people even know that if some team members are LGBT? I am a gay and I think it is my private matter and not something I would be interested sharing with for example my employer. I prefer to separate work and my private life in many other issues as well.

On the job application, there are optional questions where you can identify various minority and special statuses.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#165

Post by wizofaus »

dbrueck wrote: post #94

My problem with so-called diversity efforts is that they wildly overemphasize a really superficial attribute: skin color. That is, at best, a tenuous proxy for actual diversity and goes against decades of work of the U.S. civil rights movement. There are real benefits to having a diverse group of people in just about every setting, but assessing the level of diversity by noting the range of skin tones present is inef…

> they wildly overemphasize a really superficial attribute

That may be true in your party of the world but at least in the IT industry in mine, diversity in skin colour (*) isn't really an issue. Diversity in sex, age and physical ability levels definitely are though, and I'd like to see a much stronger push to ensure an older disabled or blind woman is given the same consideration as a younger able-bodied/sighted man, given the there's no reason the former should be any less capable of fulfilling the job requirements, but examples of are vastly underrepresented, meaning we're almost certainly missing out on hiring the most talented engineers that we can find.

(*) admittedly I'm treating skin colour as just a proxy for ethnic/racial background. There's not a marked difference in skin colour between most East Asian backgrounds for instance, but within the Indian subcontinent there's a decent range. There probably still is something of an implicit bias towards lighter skin tones even given a wide range of backgrounds, and certainly those from an indigenous background are underrepresented. But that problem starts much earlier than at the point of being hired professionally as an adult.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#166

Post by tptacek »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #156
tptacek wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to come up with valid critiques of institutional DEI. But the blog post we're reading here is conclusory and derives almost entirely from a tendentious definition of a single word.

That's a good point. However, when a phrase becomes its opposite, we should take notice. PRC and Holy Roman Empire come to mind. ;-)

I don't believe any phrase has become its opposite here. Language is complicated, and some words have multiple meanings, and some of those meanings are subtle; the idea that every term should be crystalized down to a single unambiguous meaning is, ironically, quintessentially Orwellian.

(I'm not saying Orwell would approve of institutional DEI, which suffers from many similar rhetorical flaws).

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#167

Post by lazyeye »

SR2Z wrote: post #154
thethimble wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s level 3 on pg’s hierarchy of disagreement - the whole concept of which I find interesting: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

The implication is that somehow being correct in an argument matters more than tone, which is... childish. If you want to have a productive argument (as opposed to just being an asshole screaming at passerby) you need to convince people that you are worth engaging. This means showing good faith and not being overly dismissive (i.e. tone).

You think tone matters more then being correct?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#168

Post by dfxm12 »

sharikous wrote: post #82
ryeguy_24 wrote: post #54

Isn't the real issue behind all the names (diversity, inclusion, etc) about the equalizing of opportunity or at the very least, bringing certain oppressed groups (and, if you don't think certain groups are or have been oppressed or discriminated against, educate yourself) up the opportunity curve? Do we want to live in a world where you have less opportunity because of characteristics you were born with?

Skin color and gender are terrible measures of "opportunities you have". Money is much more indicative

That's true. It's hard to admit that, though. The current monied class can easily blame previous, (mostly dead) generations for racism and misogyny and say "we didn't create this problem, but this is what we're trying to do to fix this". Of course, they're benefitting from the situation and remain in control per the status quo.

If we admit to the classism that currently exists, that in the US the zip code you were born in says so much about what your opportunities will be, it's going to take a lot more social reform to address it than applying pressure around university admissions or job offers. The monied class may actually have to give up some power in that situation...

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#169

Post by missingrib »

tptacek wrote: post #89

The whole blog is like this; it's all sort of comically smug "everybody else in the entire world is wrong, and here is a 7-point axiomatic derivation proving it"†, much of it depending on specific definitions of specific words. Check-mate, atheists! There are lots of good, sharp, critical things to say about the DEI movement, most especially "institutional" DEI, but you can't meaningfully say them when you write with…

This tone is very common in academic philosophy. I would characterize it as being low in rhetoric and extremely blunt. I don't really see how it sounds like "a high school sophomore".

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#170

Post by zozbot234 »

ok_dad wrote: post #142
zozbot234 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't meaningfully enforce open-mindedness or tolerance. The very idea is an oxymoron. The whole notion of tolerance is based on the idea that we might sometimes find it expedient to work alongside people we don't agree with about everything.

Every single person I've met in my life that was racist or sexist or whatever-ist (including myself) has only become a better person and more open-minded when they were forced to work in close proximity to people of other races and cultures. As to myself, I was raised in a pretty racist place in the USA, and via the military I met so many other people that I finally realized that the stereotypes I was taught about ot…

> ... We're not machines, after all, and shouldn't be treated like only our output matters.

Sure, but that's not enforcing open-mindedness or tolerance. It's just creating the kind of setting where the benefits of a more tolerant stance are easiest to get.

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