Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#471

Post by gonehome » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 5:34 AM UTC

salawat wrote: post #434

gonehome wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that when we abandon the general principle it immediately becomes a question of what speech is ok to ban and this can be weaponized by rivals. People always imagine themselves or people they agree with in the position of determining what gets banned, but they should imagine their political rival or enemy in that position. The free speech principle is about setting the bar such that everyone agrees on the…

>Forcing private companies to not moderate though is different - that is itself a violation of the company’s speech. Damnit, companies should have no recognized "right to speech". Citizen's United is a bloody scourge. A corporation is a vehicle for risk distribution, and should have never been allowed to become anything more. Theoment we started inferring rights to legal fictions we started going stark raving mad.

Citizen's United is a more nuanced issue when you read about the legal arguments (maybe you have, but often people don't know the details). I had seen a lot of people say negative things about it, but when I read about it I thought the way it was decided made sense.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#472

Post by WalterBright » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 5:36 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #457

WalterBright wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider all those hundreds of thousands of people that tramp thousands of miles just for a chance to get into the US? What do they know that you don't, or are they just fools? Why is there not an exodus of hundreds of thousands of poor Americans tramping to other countries? > Generally alongside massive government-directed/-financed social programs, often much higher tax rates than we’ve seen for decades, alongside…

> Consider all those hundreds of thousands of people that tramp thousands of miles just for a chance to get into the US? What do they know that you don't, or are they just fools? This feels like a strawman, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that it’s asked sincerely. Nothing I said was intended to suggest that the disparity across borders wouldn’t justify their journey. Many making that journey certainly do…

I don't believe that several hundred thousand people migrate out of the US every year. Such would certainly make the news. Yes, there are ex pats, but not many.

What would you say the number of people dying in factory fires were?

Since life expectancy went steadily up during the 19th century, it doesn't seem like factory fires had a worse effect than the positive effect of better nutrition, sanitation, housing, etc.

> I’m not going to bother responding to these paragraphs

Those numbers are easily findable via google. If they don't fit the thesis that Amazon is a hellhole for workers and bad for customers, oh well. The migrants that come here by the hundreds of thousands also are not turning around and running away once they discover how awful it is here.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#473

Post by WalterBright » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 5:41 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #466

WalterBright wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market is orthogonal to other measures of freedom like democracy. Voting rights are not required for free market to deliver prosperity, as China has demonstrated. > there’s every reason to assume unfettered market freedom loves social constraint. I don't know where that came from. I don't see any such relationship. > where you don’t get dead or put in prison or similarly punished for advocating things you th…

> The free market is orthogonal to other measures of freedom like democracy. To the extent it is, it’s a failure which erodes or prevents those freedoms from thriving. > A free market, to be a free market, does not put people in prison for improving their lives. I was going to invite you to learn more about labor history in the US, but… > as China has demonstrated. Never mind, you clearly already understand the point…

> To the extent it is, it’s a failure which erodes or prevents those freedoms from thriving.

I don't see how.

> I was going to invite you to learn more about labor history in the US

I know a fair bit about it. Present what you're thinking about.

> you clearly already understand the point that a state which has mass forced labor camps is compatible with what’s called a free market

A free market doesn't have to be perfect in order to deliver results. It's just that the more free it is, the better it delivers.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Post by Jensson » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 6:14 AM UTC

hotpotamus wrote: post #271

Jensson wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly biology teachers aren't allowed to teach intelligent design unless it is a part of the curriculum, you can't just teach whatever theory you want without the school boards permission. I don't think that biology teachers should teach intelligent design, and I don't think that is a free speech violation.

So what would you do if you found out your child's biology teacher was speaking to them about intelligent design?

They would get fired with cause since they aren't doing their job properly.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#475

Post by eyelidlessness » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 6:14 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #472

eyelidlessness wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider all those hundreds of thousands of people that tramp thousands of miles just for a chance to get into the US? What do they know that you don't, or are they just fools? This feels like a strawman, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that it’s asked sincerely. Nothing I said was intended to suggest that the disparity across borders wouldn’t justify their journey. Many making that journey certainly do…

I don't believe that several hundred thousand people migrate out of the US every year. Such would certainly make the news. Yes, there are ex pats, but not many. What would you say the number of people dying in factory fires were? Since life expectancy went steadily up during the 19th century, it doesn't seem like factory fires had a worse effect than the positive effect of better nutrition, sanitation, housing, etc.…

No post body was provided.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Post by FooBarWidget » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 6:24 AM UTC

tstrimple wrote: post #417

FooBarWidget wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of such people on social media, if you know where to look. The trick is that none of them are directly calling for arrest for what people say. Instead they masquerade that under an accusation that attacks your person, e.g. they accuse you of harassment, of spreading propaganda, or of some crime. With the goal of silencing your views — all without ever engaging with the arguments that you provide. This…

So they are using their own freedom of speech and you don’t like it? What should you suggest is done about it?

So you call silencing tactics a form of freedom of speech as long as it's not by the government? I find this a really shortsighted way of looking at freedom.

According to the original Enlightenment ideals, during which the idea of freedom of speech was created, freedom of speech is valuable not because it is inherently so, but because it's supposed to improve society. It creates a Marketplace of Ideas, and through rational debate, the best idea wins. During the French Revolution, Liberté was supposed to be equally important as Egalité and Fraternité, i.e. societal responsibility mattered just as much as freedom.

What is the point if freedom of speech is used to destroy the Marketplace, and if freedom of speech devolves into a form where everybody shouts but nobody listens to each other (i.e. the post-truth society)? What is the point of shouting on an island, instead of reconciling differences?

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#477

Post by michaelmrose » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 6:34 AM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #433

michaelmrose wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they aren't actually sneaking into your country on reindeer-back and you are just trying to stir up hate for blonds I have no problem with you being punished for inciting hate.

See? You are the answer to Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I said a significant fraction of the HN user base shares your opinion and user D23 said he didn't understand how anyone could think that was true. Well, Q.E.D.

If speech is provably false and part of a pattern of disinformation designed to stir up hate and violence why is it a problem to police it?

See the disinfo about jewish people followed thereafter by the mass murder of jewish people.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Post by michaelmrose » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 6:36 AM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #387

michaelmrose wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Persuasive and well written. It certainly seems applicable for example to the anticommunist fervor that the US dealt with in decades past for example. On the other hand that passage seems uniquely inapplicable to our modern times which are more free of societal oppression than almost any time previously. Neonazis, communists, would be anarchists, followers of 1000 cults and political groups many mutually offensive to…

> Their speech is dangerous. It's not a given that they will be defeated. Establishing some standards on platforms to deny them a mass audience while still keeping the wide open internet free for anyone to use seems virtuous. I don’t get how it is any different from the anticommunist fervor you are decrying. Your stand is basically to let various crazy people to have crazy ideas unless there become too many of them a…

The anticommunist fervor saw people's lives and careers ruined. Making the white supremacists get together on gab with their fellow gabbers because they got kicked off Facebook allows them to exercise free speech within the boundaries of the law while limiting the spread of their poison.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Post by pstuart » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 6:41 AM UTC

As_You_Wish wrote: post #450

MichaelCollins wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's interesting, 'saying X should be against the law' is precisely not what I'm hearing. You've never heard anybody in the US advocating for laws against hate speech? I mean 'hate speech' which isn't inciting imminent lawless action, the present standard set by Bradenburg v. Ohio. Something like "ethnic group X are bringing crime to our community" ; this sort of statement is called hate speech, but is legal in A…

I always notice that "hate speech" is how people want it defined. For example, I personally think "toxic masculinity," "mansplaining," "patriarchy," showing men as stupid foolish and incapable in movies and tv shows, and all the rest of the anti-male bashing is hate speech. However, I'm shouted down every time I say one word about this on any online forums. That's because the matriarchy that we live in does not allow…

Making up your own definitions isn't how it works.

And mockery is not hate speech. And I'm not shouting either.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 8:20 AM UTC

bandyaboot wrote: post #229

cies wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they trot out Popper quotes about tolerating intolerance. Yup, that's me. What's wrong with that according to you? If your expression is promoting violence, especially violence against a vulnerable group (children, minorities, I'd say even animals), I'm okay with drawing up laws against such things. Thereby reducing freedom of expression. Advertising for instance. If every building/land owner or municipality could…

Could someone explain to me why the mass downvoting of the above comment is not hypocritical? I believe it is, but would be interested in hearing opposing thoughts.

[deleted]