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Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#411

Post by hintymad »

Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

> It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span

History shows that people were pretty willing to give up freedom or liberty in the name of social justice or righteousness.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#412

Post by wyager »

timdev2 wrote: post #256
wyager wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Freedom of speech" does not mean "the cathedral is allowed to do anything short of putting you in jail to censor and punish your speech". "Freedom of speech" does not just refer to a specific narrowly-defined legal doctrine.

I'm curious when that happened. I hear people say it all the time. But I'm old enough to have grown up before the commercial internet, and I don't remember there being any widespread conception of "free speech" apart from limitations on state censorship. For instance, I suspect if some antisemitic nuts in say, the 1960s, had wanted to buy a full page ad in the NYT with some elders-of-zion type conspiracy ad, complete…

> limitations on state censorship

That's still what we're talking about. The state has just gotten better at outsourcing the work, so people who aren't paying close attention don't even recognize it as such. Hence my invocation of "the cathedral", as opposed to narrowly "the government".

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#413

Post by wyager »

cies wrote: post #198
MichaelCollins wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? The way it works is: "Sure I support free speech, but saying X is not free speech and saying it should be against the law because its offensive and might incite violence or something." If you object, they trot out Popper quotes about tolerating intolerance.

> they trot out Popper quotes about tolerating intolerance. Yup, that's me. What's wrong with that according to you? If your expression is promoting violence, especially violence against a vulnerable group (children, minorities, I'd say even animals), I'm okay with drawing up laws against such things. Thereby reducing freedom of expression. Advertising for instance. If every building/land owner or municipality could…

> What's wrong with that according to you?

Popper is a pseud who is popular with other pseuds.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#414

Post by 1270018080 »

happytoexplain wrote: post #36

In my experience, the notion of being "for or against freedom of speech" is actually referring to something more subjective, and that phrasing is used to imply which side of the disagreement the speaker believes is correct, like referring to the debate about abortion as the debate about murdering babies. It signals a strong bias.

It's a topic that is beaten to death on HN. Every few weeks a neonazi gets kicked off of a website, and it's just bad faith, poorly framed arguments, and slippery slope fallacies thrown back and forth until it falls of the front page.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#415

Post by wyager »

Bud wrote: post #326
cortesoft wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

You might have failed to notice what Florida's governor is doing, then, with the recent "Don't Say Gay" law.

What is your understanding of the "Don't Say Gay" (so named by its opponents) law? Are you under the impression it prevents people from saying "Gay", for example?

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#416

Post by throwayyy479087 »

Tenobrus wrote: post #151
cortesoft wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

You're talking the US first amendment and how freedom of speech relates to governments, but that's only a limited subset of the general concept of free speech. Obviously discussions around platforms involve more complexity, but for example if AT&T started refusing to send my texts based on what kinds of ideas I was arguing for then this is a serious attempt to limit speech and discussion which is morally incorrect, r…

This keeps getting forgotten - Freedom of Speech is a principle and not just an amendment.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#417

Post by tstrimple »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #350
cortesoft wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

There are lots of such people on social media, if you know where to look. The trick is that none of them are directly calling for arrest for what people say. Instead they masquerade that under an accusation that attacks your person, e.g. they accuse you of harassment, of spreading propaganda, or of some crime. With the goal of silencing your views — all without ever engaging with the arguments that you provide. This…

So they are using their own freedom of speech and you don’t like it? What should you suggest is done about it?

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#418

Post by WalterBright »

pstuart wrote: post #410
WalterBright wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politicians are well aware that people vote based on emotional appeals, and take full advantage of it.

Ok, but I'm asking about what actual policies are "those people" voting on? I'm just seeing the fear and anger bits.

Trump's tax cuts correlated with prosperity and very low unemployment.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#419

Post by remarkEon »

slg wrote: post #379
remarkEon wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>TITLE XLVIII EARLY LEARNING-20 EDUCATION CODE Are you saying Florida had no education standards before this bill was passed?

I'm not looking for their general education standards. I am looking for their education standards specifically on how to teach about "sexual orientation or gender identity" in an "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" way because that is what the law we are discussing references.

Florida doesn’t spell out an exact curriculum at the state level for sex Ed, it’s explicitly left to local school districts to do that. All the law in question is saying is that when those rules are developed they still have to abide by those general standards referenced above. Seems like standard legalese and I don’t think it’s much more complicated than that.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#420

Post by pstuart »

WalterBright wrote: post #418
pstuart wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but I'm asking about what actual policies are "those people" voting on? I'm just seeing the fear and anger bits.

Trump's tax cuts correlated with prosperity and very low unemployment.

Correlated.

There's plenty to discuss in depth there but let's just stick to enumerating high-level policy/programs that we're being voted for, e.g., "Vote for me and I'll give you X, Y, and Z!".

I'm trying to understand what X, Y, and Z might be.

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