Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#131

Post by rmatt2000 » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

marcopolo3333 wrote: post #65

illuminerdy wrote: post #29

I can see how their conclusions play out in real life. One of the common threads I've noticed across many people when trying to explain why defending freedom of speech, and the free and open exchange of ideas in general, is that they're not just defending some "right-wing" person's rights, they're actually defending their own rights. Because the same tactics and rationales that are being used to suppress and silence…

A common thread I see is a lot is people conflating freedom of speech and having a platform (more specifically an online one). Forcing private entities to host speech they don't want to goes against what I define as freedom of speech. Everyone should be entitled to speak and have their own ideas, no individual or company should be force to spread them.

> Forcing private entities to host speech they don't want to goes against what I define as freedom of speech.

What if the private entity is suppressing speech at the behest of the government?

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#132

Post by wpietri » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #101

wpietri wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to all of HN, but over the years I've gone from a free speech absolutist to seeing rights as balanced against one another. And also to consider what motivates me to be for free speech. For example, one reason I think free speech is vital is that I want everybody to have a say. Another is that think society works best when we hear from a wide variety of perspectives. However, there are some people who us…

[flagged]

> > people who advocate for exterminating Jews and returning Black people to slavery

> Literally no one does that. You are imagining things.

You are obviously not a serious participant here. These people exist. They existed before the internet, and the internet has, to my great disappointment, only enabled their spread.

There's a ton you could read, but maybe start with Neiwert's "God's Country" and "Alt-America", which document the pre- and post-Internet versions of America's white supremacist movement.

> Abusive is a relative and in this context meaningless word.

That is also embarrassingly ignorant. If you'd like to learn something, maybe try Citron's "Hate Crimes in Cyberspace", Warren's "Targeted and Trolled", Jeong's "The Internet of Garbage", and Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That".

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#133

Post by taway345 » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

hotpotamus wrote: post #27

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #3

There appears to be a recent shift on HackerNews no longer support freedom of speech. I don't know that its just HackerNews either - it seems like its 'internet residents no longer support freedom of speech.' I'm not sure how to interpret this.

If you really want to scramble your noodle, look at the recent spate of state laws placing restrictions on speech and notice the lean of the parties that control those states.

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Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#134

Post by OrangeMonkey » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

coeneedell wrote: post #114

rmatt2000 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should spend some time on a college campus. Shouting down speakers and deplatforming non-progressives is more common than one might think.

I don’t see how this is inconsistent with what they’re saying. These people are asking their colleges to not provide a platform, not that the speakers should not be allowed to speak anywhere.

Colleges are public locations that have historically allowed free speech. Court cases have been tried and lost trying to restrict this free speech.

I think then you see the issue - "These people are asking their colleges to break the law and restrict the speech of others."

You can argue that the laws should be changed to stop the current concept of free speech though.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#135

Post by slg » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

rmatt2000 wrote: post #109

cortesoft wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

You should spend some time on a college campus. Shouting down speakers and deplatforming non-progressives is more common than one might think.

People on HN and in this thread in particular have such a one sided view of this issue. For some reason people here only think the left is attacking free speech when the truth is that free speech is under attack from both the left and right. One of those two has been much more effective translating these attacks into laws which I would expect to be the most concerning for proponents of free speech and yet it is always "what is happening on college campuses" that scares people more than "what is happening in state legislatures".

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#136

Post by slavik81 » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #105

Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

> Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant—society collectively, over the separate individuals who compose it—its means of tyrannising are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself.

> Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough: there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence: and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs, as protection against political despotism.

~ John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#137

Post by mc32 » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

citizenkeen wrote: post #127

rmatt2000 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should spend some time on a college campus. Shouting down speakers and deplatforming non-progressives is more common than one might think.

That is perfectly in line with freedom of speech. Is the government showing up and arresting the speakers? No? Then freedom of speech is intact.

It’s not. If another form of government were to take over and decide that progressivism is dirty and society takes the cue, that’s not freedom of speech. It’s insidious censorship none the less

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#138

Post by whimsicalism » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #111

Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

The news media are decidedly less pro-free speech than before. They could afford to promote free speech back when they had a monopoly on people's attention when it came to news. Now that Google can direct you to any number of independent sources, the news media feels threatened and wants to censor unapproved views so they can maintain the Overton Window. Noam Chomsky: "The smart way to keep people passive and obedien…

I think it's a mixed bag. The media also knows that articles about "censorship"/"woke culture" in college campuses get a ton of engagement so they are also driving a lot of the ire there.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#139

Post by jen20 » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

rhexs wrote: post #64

Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

How many immigrants do you think grew up the same way? Hint: almost none, as the United States is the only country that enshrines true freedom of speech as an unalienable and fundamental right. This is probably considered "hate-speech" in this day and age, but immigration, shockingly, has cons as well.

If you look beyond your short-sighted screed, you will typically find that most immigrants to the US value American ideals more than many Americans. In some cases that is caused by idealism, and in others it's having experienced governments which are actually oppressive.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#140

Post by MichaelCollins » Sat, Sep 10, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

MarkMarine wrote: post #116

marcopolo3333 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still is a virtue and a right in the US. Freedom of speech is not about giving every idea and every person and equal platform to spread their ideas. It's not about forcing others to host/spread ideas they disagree with. I think the internet has given people a warped sense about what freedom of speech is. We have no less freedom of speech now than we did before social media/internet.

100% Freedom of speech in the terms of the first amendment is the government not infringing on your speech (like, throwing you in jail for criticizing it) It has zero to do with what you can say on twitter, or if the people you’re deciding to say something to band together and decide you’re an asshole who should be ignored or fired.

> 100% Freedom of speech in the terms of the first amendment

Freedom of speech is a principle, not an amendment. The first amendment exemplifies the principle of freedom of speech, but does not define the bounds of that principle.