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Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

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Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#111

Post by lionhearted »

Very good article. 100% agree.

One thing to keep in mind also is that pushing back against this negotiation tactic is good, but sometimes people do just have to move fast. I had five interviews two Fridays ago, and I offered the second candidate the job - starting on Monday, 20% higher pay than she asked for in her resume, and interesting roles. But I had to know right away, because I had to know what to do with the next set of candidates.

Also worth noting is that she didn't have a job currently - her previous company pulled out of China, so there was no risk to her of joining. I was more careful when I recruited a woman who was working at the U.S. Embassy, which was a fantastic stable position with solid pay - I asked her to start here part time for a week or two to make sure there was a fit before quitting a very good job.

Anyways, point is, people want decisions fast for many reasons. Look to see if it's in your best interest to decide fast, and decide fast if so. If it's not, push back. Not all fast paces are petty bargaining moves though.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#112

Post by jamieb »

nupark2 wrote: post #90
cletus wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. Certainly in the US in most states, employment is "at will", meaning the company can fire you for pretty much any reason at any time (ignoring protected classes and so on). Likewise, the employee can leave at any time. If you accept the offer and then renege you've actually fulfilled your contractual obligation . If the company wants more than that, they nee…

> Certainly in the US in most states, employment is "at will", meaning the company can fire you for pretty much any reason at any time (ignoring protected classes and so on). Likewise, the employee can leave at any time. You're mixing things up. Ethically speaking, if the company winds up having _cause_ to fire them later, that's a separate matter, and there's no ethic quandary. Likewise, if the employee makes an eff…

>One shouldn't have to pay for people to do what they say they'll do: if they accept the offer, barring some act of god, they should start work for the company.

You are missing the point nupark. What they said they would do is "I will work for you, and I will give you two weeks notice if I choose not to."

By your own criteria, they have fulfilled their obligation. Move on.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#113

Post by buff-a »

impendia wrote: post #28

> Trust me on this one: there’s not a single hiring manager in the world who wants to hire you but would get mad just because you’re considering other offers. Although Joel Spolsky certainly knows more than me, I'll ask anyway: Is that really true? Perhaps it is, but I would guess that this is a pretty big overstatement. However, I think it can safely be said (and this is maybe not obvious to many prospective interns…

This is a really good point. I've worked for a company that had a great team, but HR were beyond words. Even where I to choose a word that would get me modded down, even here, it would fail to convey my animosity towards them. HR is usually pretty mellow about such things. Managers, on the other hand, can often be ego-maniacal fuckwads. But you don't (usually) want to work for those guys anyway.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#114

Post by chubot »

jrockway wrote: post #107
chubot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh yeah, ethics. You can treat life like a big exercise in game theory. But you're going to have this thing called a "reputation". Maybe you can get away with it on your campus interviews, but if you consistently lie to get the best of a situation, it will catch up to you. (Lying in this case being accepting an offer without the intention of taking it. As opposed to saying you need time to consider other offers.) Joe…

I doubt this. By what mechanism will recruiters at company A use to communicate your failure to accept their offer to company B? Accepting every offer and then reneging on all but one marks you as a second-rate employee. It's the behavior of the desperate. No it's not. I can see why you might think it's shady, but it's not desperate. It's the behavior of someone afraid to push back, which probably happens more to col…

Read the comment -- I said that all likelihood you could get away with it. But as your career progresses, don't underestimate how small the industry is -- especially Silicon Valley.

All I'm saying is that if your first instinct in every situation is to say "How can I lie and get the best of this?" you're not going to be as successful as you think. People aren't dumb.

Also, with that attitude, you'll tend to attract others looking to take shortcuts and rip you off as well. Those people will also be smarter than you.

Software is a great field because it's not a zero-sum game. You don't have to rip someone else off to get ahead. These days software people are tripping over jobs on the way to work, so I'm not sure where the desire to micro-optimize comes from. Just apply to jobs that seem interesting, and accept only the offers where you would actually want to work.

Life is unpredictable so sometimes you might have to back out. But I wouldn't make a habit of it.

The original article is good reminder to push back when you see shady behavior. And it will actually work out in your favor because you will appear more desirable.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#115

Post by mruniverse »

nupark2 wrote: post #65
cletus wrote: post #51

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer, which I guess makes a certain amount of sense, but as a potential employee that's not your problem . The simple fact is that as an employee you should be looking out for yourself. Period. That means pushing back on a hard deadline that will exclude you from trying to get your dream (or simply preferred) job. If the company won't budge and you're unsure of your prosp…

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they m…

Using pressure tactics on a new grad doesn't sound too ethical to me. The only person gaining if the new grad accepts is the recruiter. The company will gain a disgruntled employee and the employee will have lost a better offer.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#116

Post by nupark2 »

jamieb wrote: post #112
nupark2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certainly in the US in most states, employment is "at will", meaning the company can fire you for pretty much any reason at any time (ignoring protected classes and so on). Likewise, the employee can leave at any time. You're mixing things up. Ethically speaking, if the company winds up having _cause_ to fire them later, that's a separate matter, and there's no ethic quandary. Likewise, if the employee makes an eff…

>One shouldn't have to pay for people to do what they say they'll do: if they accept the offer, barring some act of god, they should start work for the company. You are missing the point nupark. What they said they would do is "I will work for you, and I will give you two weeks notice if I choose not to." By your own criteria, they have fulfilled their obligation. Move on.

> You are missing the point nupark. What they said they would do is "I will work for you, and I will give you two weeks notice if I choose not to."

No, they accepted an offer of employment, with a start date. The employer has every reason to believe they've done so in good faith.

If, in fact, they were insincere in their acceptance, that's both unethical and unprofessional.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#117

Post by jcstauffer »

cletus wrote: post #82
nupark2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they m…

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. Certainly in the US in most states, employment is "at will", meaning the company can fire you for pretty much any reason at any time (ignoring protected classes and so on). Likewise, the employee can leave at any time. If you accept the offer and then renege you've actually fulfilled your contractual obligation . If the company wants more than that, they nee…

You seem to be confusing "ethics" with "legal obligation". They are very different. Just because I can take an action that is legal does not make it ethical (see Wall St. for example). Conversely, there are cases where the "right" or ethical action may not be legal (e.g, peaceful protest).

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#118

Post by salvadors »

nupark2 wrote: post #92
arctangent wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. I keep my word when I'm dealing with people. With people my word is bond. With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. If you sign a contract promising to begin work on a certain date and there's no penalty for changing your mind, then it's OK to change your mind. If they…

With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. Companies are comprised of people. If you break your word and cost the company money, you're costing those people (and the investors) money. As a business owner, I find it very frustrating how some people's morals seem to not apply to their dealings with corporations. I wonder if it's a…

> If you break your word and cost the company money, you're costing those people (and the investors) money.

There is nothing even remotely immoral about costing a company (and their investors) money. If there were it would immoral to launch a competing company.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#120

Post by thedufer »

jrockway wrote: post #72

Does this ever work on anyone? I got an offer from Google that "expires in 5 days". I said, "I'm not going to decide that quickly, so I'll just re-apply when I'm sure I want to work there." Suddenly, the deadline was gone.

I've seen the same thing happen to 2 friends who applied to Microsoft, if you replace "gone" with "extended 2-3 months", which basically amounts to the same.
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