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Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

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Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#51
A lot of people are viewing this from the employer, which I guess makes a certain amount of sense, but as a potential employee that's not your problem.

The simple fact is that as an employee you should be looking out for yourself. Period. That means pushing back on a hard deadline that will exclude you from trying to get your dream (or simply preferred) job.

If the company won't budge and you're unsure of your prospects then yes by all means accept it, go to the other interview and, if you get it, bail on the other one.

For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they might not (and I've had it happen where they haven't).

If your "safety employer" is a large company don't even give it a second thought. Microsoft or Yahoo will offer hundreds of jobs. Not everyone is going to show. It's factored in and the companies won't die if you don't show up.

Be more careful when it comes to small companies but, as others have noted, smaller companies may be in a situation between getting 0 employees and getting 1. That's a big difference from getting 199 or 200.

Ultimately though, the company's problems aren't your problems, particularly if they exploit your inexperience and relative lack of negotiating power to force you into making a premature decision. That company will have interviewed other people. It will simply extend an offer to the next person on the list.

If they can't get someone to join them they're either not offering enough compensation or they're simply not desirable employers. Neither of which is your problem.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#52
post #32
post #10

So accept the initial offer, do the interview with the #1 choice anyway, and if it works out, drop the runner-up. They don't need to be on your resume. The first choice doesn't need to know about any of this, though you might have to get creative with the interview scheduling. I have no doubt that the scenario Joel describes is real, but anyone who gets screwed this way needs a bit more of the "dog eat dog" mindset.…

What would you think of a company that made someone an offer and a few weeks before the start of the internship said "you know, we actually found someone better so we won't be hiring you after all." Both the company and the employee should be honest. Period. Anything else and you're being an asshole who's screwing people over. Exploding offers are there 95% of the time because a company has a schedule to follow and c…

I understand that we (on Hacker News) tend to come from a startup perspective, so it makes sense where you're coming from. But in the context that Joel was describing, that's not a valid comparison. Surely Joel isn't recommending dropping a startup of one founder using this tactic (it would be better to say no early). He specifically mentioned Microsoft as an example.

If you as an individual got your offer rescinded at the last minute, that's a detriment to your career because you don't have time to make it up. If on the other hand you had 1/1000th of your offer rescinded at the last minute because you didn't give the other party a chance to consider other candidates ("give me an offer now" after the interview), well, sucks to be you but it's not so bad.

Similarly, if a startup that NEEDED one extra employee to fill a critical role suddenly lost that employee, that's an unfortunate tragedy. If on the other hand, Microsoft lost one college grad, that's just a rounding error.

I hope my explanation makes sense for why context is extremely important.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#53

This article is a word-for-word repost of an article Joel posted on his site in November 2008: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html How does something like this work - does Betabeat ask Joel for permission to repost his content under their name/banner/ads? Do they work out a cut of ad revenue? Or do they just copy-and-paste the content without permission, figuring most writers won't complain?

BetaBeat asked for permission to repost this, which I granted. They did not pay me for it.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#54

This article is a word-for-word repost of an article Joel posted on his site in November 2008: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html How does something like this work - does Betabeat ask Joel for permission to repost his content under their name/banner/ads? Do they work out a cut of ad revenue? Or do they just copy-and-paste the content without permission, figuring most writers won't complain?

BetaBeat asked for permission to repost this, which I granted. They did not pay me for it.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#55

> Thanksgiving marks the start of tech’s most intense hiring season, as promising computer science students start looking for summer jobs and internships. I'm a student. Legitimate question, is this true? Should I be starting to get my act together for summer internships?

Yes. Google starts around this time, and Facebook starts even earlier. When I was in my Junior year I interviewed and got my offer from Facebook when it was still September. In contrast, Google didn't get back to me until November or so.

If you want them to hurry it up, you just need to mention your existing offers. In my Senior year, I was able to get Google to complete the entire interview-interview-offer process within a week and half, before the first week of October, because I had a Facebook deadline.

So the best bet is to interview early so you can use that as a negotiating stick for getting other companies.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#56
post #7

I'm surprised this is coming from Spolsky. Spolsky's companies must be getting big. Small companies can often only hire one person at a time and therefore need short acceptance windows. Small companies (< 50 people) often have only one specific position open. It is unethical to make more than one offer if you hiring for a single position. Therefore small companies often need short acceptance windows so they can make…

I've been sitting on a Fog Creek offer since late August and there's been no pressure whatsoever to respond. They seem to take more of the approach of giving out offers to anyone they like, on the assumption that they'll be able to find something for them to do if they all take it. Joel definitely sticks to his guns on this one, but I wouldn't call either of his companies big (pretty sure they both fall in the < 50 p…

Right, no pressure. That said, we are really running low on 30" monitors, and you might have to use an old 13" SVGA monitor if you don't accept by midnight tonight

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#57
post #53

This article is a word-for-word repost of an article Joel posted on his site in November 2008: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html How does something like this work - does Betabeat ask Joel for permission to repost his content under their name/banner/ads? Do they work out a cut of ad revenue? Or do they just copy-and-paste the content without permission, figuring most writers won't complain?

BetaBeat asked for permission to repost this, which I granted. They did not pay me for it.

As a writer, were there any benefits to you to grant that permission? Or was it more along the lines of there being no downside and it's nice to be asked?

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#58

> Trust me on this one: there’s not a single hiring manager in the world who wants to hire you but would get mad just because you’re considering other offers. Although Joel Spolsky certainly knows more than me, I'll ask anyway: Is that really true? Perhaps it is, but I would guess that this is a pretty big overstatement. However, I think it can safely be said (and this is maybe not obvious to many prospective interns…

He's just stating the obvious. If they think you're a desirable employee, they're not going to be offended if you are considering multiple offers. Or if they are, they are so unprofessional and petty, that you're better off staying away. This is business, not dating.

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Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#59
post #8

There's no mention of the flip side of this. I only have one position, and I interview multiple candidates, several of which are good. If I make you an offer, I can't afford to sit around waiting for weeks for you to make up your mind: if you turn it down, chances are my other candidates are already gone, and now I have to start the whole process again from scratch. Edit: fair enough, I missed that Joel was talking a…

[deleted]

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#60
I've noticed several comments about small companies not hiring at colleges. In my experience, this is not the case. It could just be that I went to university in Waterloo, Ontario (AKA Silicon Valley North) but many of the companies recruiting were quite small. One company I interviewed with remarked on how their previous intern wrote their entire Bluetooth stack.

If anything, this is the perfect place for small companies to recruit. If the candidate turns out to be bad, you know their contract is up in a few months (it's probably possible to fire them early, but I imagine that that is a lot more effort). If the candidate is good, you can offer a full-time position. You skip the expensive hiring process and they can hit the ground running when they come back.

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