They use the same tactics at Amazon. Joel is spot on in this case, Amazon is just another mediocre company -- had to find out the hard way unfortunately.
Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
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Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#72Does this ever work on anyone? I got an offer from Google that "expires in 5 days". I said, "I'm not going to decide that quickly, so I'll just re-apply when I'm sure I want to work there." Suddenly, the deadline was gone.
Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand that we (on Hacker News) tend to come from a startup perspective, so it makes sense where you're coming from. But in the context that Joel was describing, that's not a valid comparison. Surely Joel isn't recommending dropping a startup of one founder using this tactic (it would be better to say no early). He specifically mentioned Microsoft as an example. If you as an individual got your offer rescinded…
If it's wrong, it's wrong, whether you do it to your best friend or your worst enemy. A big company can absorb the cost of a schedule slip or missing an opportunity to hire a great alternative candidate. That doesn't make it any more right to break your word.
Usually each situation is unique and people tend to analyze the situation by themselves and take the best course of action on a case by case basis: people are free to judge if the recruiter represents a small company trying to juggle their single hire position or if they try to bait you in accepting a lower number by making the offer time-restricted.
You don't do to your worst enemy things you do to your friend. It's your (and everyone's) choice to do otherwise if you prefer a simple and implicit option every time. But "morality is people’s privacy, whenever you use morality in an agreement to bind other people should do something, you first of all, is immoral, you’re just a sanctimonious hypocrite." (Linus Torvalds - http://www.netxt.com/an-interview-with-linus-torvalds-despis... )
Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#74Is it odd that the most surprising thing about this article, for me, was that people start looking for summer jobs in November? Also, why aren't people accepting every offer they get, then at the start of summer[1] send an email about changing their minds to everyone who isn't the best offer? Or even play offers against each other? [1] or rather a reasonable amount of time sooner
You might have to sign a contract.
Which is enforced by what? Suing a college student for their future wages? Good luck recovering your legal expenses or getting anyone to ever work for you again.
Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is every company. I've never heard of any company giving more than 3-5 days. If you work for a big corp, you know how unbelievably insecure management is, any delay at all would make them look very bad politically. When a hiring manager's whole career is based on appearances, which it usually is, a week is an eternity.
Sometimes the insecurity is justified. I've seen former managers extend offers only to retract them two days later when the staff requisition was retracted by upper management. If you're on a project and you need people this encourages you to hire as quickly as possible.
We did this to several candidates we wanted to hire and they all stopped responding to us. Good people do not like to be fucked with, and now we have a bunch of idiots working in our department (who do not mind being fucked with, because getting paid to do nothing is better than not getting paid to do nothing).
Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#76They use the same tactics at Amazon. Joel is spot on in this case, Amazon is just another mediocre company -- had to find out the hard way unfortunately.
Amazon did not give me a deadline on their offer. Theoretically, I could call them up today and be working in Seattle on Monday.
Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#77> Thanksgiving marks the start of tech’s most intense hiring season, as promising computer science students start looking for summer jobs and internships. I'm a student. Legitimate question, is this true? Should I be starting to get my act together for summer internships?
Yes. I’m in my last year of undergrad and recruiters started showing up at our department (CS) a month ago.
It’s fun for us, the students. It’s nice to be wanted. :)
(Even nicer when they take you to Fogo de Chao to show they want you)
Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#78Old news. It's 3 years old. I love when the media digs out seasonal stuff. Sigh...
Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#79A lot of people are viewing this from the employer, which I guess makes a certain amount of sense, but as a potential employee that's not your problem . The simple fact is that as an employee you should be looking out for yourself. Period. That means pushing back on a hard deadline that will exclude you from trying to get your dream (or simply preferred) job. If the company won't budge and you're unsure of your prosp…
A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they m…
> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period.
I keep my word when I'm dealing with people. With people my word is bond.
With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties.
If you sign a contract promising to begin work on a certain date and there's no penalty for changing your mind, then it's OK to change your mind. If they wanted a firmer commitment than that then they could write in a penalty clause to cover that circumstance. Of course, you'd be entitled to ask for more from them in return for this commitment (e.g. increased signing bonus).
You may let down a few people at the first company if you change your mind and take another offer, but if you're a manager at a company then you should be well versed in dealing with the mild disappointment arising from an individual choosing to act in their own interest rather than the interest of the company.
Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they m…
> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. I keep my word when I'm dealing with people. With people my word is bond. With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. If you sign a contract promising to begin work on a certain date and there's no penalty for changing your mind, then it's OK to change your mind. If they…
>With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties.
Exactly, companies of all kinds can and do legally lie to your face, and write something entirely different down. It's not ethics, it's business. Every buy a car? Nothing the salesperson says has any legal bearing at all.