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Is engineering management bullshit?

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#401
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So middle managers are important because upper managers are fucking awful? That's the idea? We need the middle-management tier because of the upper-management tier? And why is the upper-management tier there? To protect middle-management from the C-tier? I think you're kinda making our point here.

100%. And all of the above are necessary because customers and investors are the fucking worst. Ok, that’s how the world works, do we stick our fingers in our ears and pretend we can ignore it? Or do we embrace it and accept the rules of the game?

I have a kind of motto/heuristic: if everyone is wrong, you're the problem

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#402
post #331

My take is like this: Engineering management works if EMs are good at their job. According to this tweet: - Startups with managers 33% more likely to develop product innovations - Firing a bad manager and replacing them with a top manager drops costs 5%, since you reduce turnover. - In a car factory, replacing a bad manager with a top manager diminishes the hours needed to build a car by 30%. - In the game industry -…

> Startups with managers 33% more likely to develop product innovations If the upside of managers is only 33%, they're probably not worth the added complexity/friction/expense !

Maybe you are misunderstanding? This number would be the holy grail of any company. Unfortunately the claim made is pure nonsense :)

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#403
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams maybe the manager was busy in meetings all day in order to ensure you had zero impact on your work streams :) the role of an EM in a large organisation is in large part to be an "enterprise abstraction layer", ensuring the people in the team(s) can work in a way that is as close as possible to what they could do in a startup/solo project

>> the role of an EM in a large organisation is in large part to be an "enterprise abstraction layer", ensuring the people in the team(s) can work in a way that is as close as possible to what they could do in a startup/solo project I worked for a guy like that. Sometimes technical decisions would bubble up and I'd get mad that he wouldn't resolve them but push them back down. I started to think he didn't do much of…

You did a great job describing quality management

It's like good infrastructure, if you don't notice it and you can proceed through your life with minimum distractions, that means it's working as intended.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#404

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Some of you people strawman like a murder of crows is attacking your field.

Coordination is necessary. Communication is valuable. Running a business is complex. Product managers do valuable work. Designers do valuable work. QA does valuable work. Leadership does valuable work. Engineers do valuable work.

The core of an EXTREME number of complaints about modern professional software development lies in the pervasiveness of Career Management; and EMs are an extremely attractive entrypoint for people into this kind of track, who have no experience in any of the IC-facing roles, yet now they're managing ICs.

Just go look at the vast majority of job postings for EMs. The requirements are extremely bare on actual, hard engineering experience; maybe you see the last requirement read something like "built an app in java or c++", and it never gets covered in the interviews.

You can't manage a role you haven't held, I will die on this hill. Senior leadership is fucking hard; that takes specialized skills, MBAs maybe, a little bit of crazy as well. EMs are not that, and anyone who tells you what EMs do is remotely as specialized as what the people higher up do is probably an EM. At their best, EMs should have an engineering background (or at least PM/PO; having worked with engineers as peers); they should know what it takes to build modern software systems from the inside; they should know how to mentor. At their worst, EMs who don't know any of this, but know management, spend their days as a Jira parrot and can make the lives of the people they manage miserable.

Its actually astounding to me that this is controversial, and that people don't recognize that the only reason companies change the requirements bar for EM positions is because, if they made the bar what I describe, that candidate would also make a great engineer; and companies are short engineers, not short "people who manage people". Its not out of some grand design that the best managers live on the management track. Many, many other specialized disciplines don't do what Big Tech does. The tracks for Engineers and Engineering Managers shouldn't be separate; they should be one track. But Big Tech companies don't want their engineers leaving the IC role, so they make do; and the irony of it all is all this does is lower the average quality of EMs in the org, which causes engineers to leave anyway; just to competitors.

That's why Engineering Management is bullshit. It doesn't have to be. Much of what that role does is necessary; its just overwhelmingly filled by the wrong people, who then morph the role into some bastardization of what it should be, get promoted, then write the job spec for their replacement.

[1] https://stripe.com/jobs/listing/engineering-manager-payment-...

[2] https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/77396557743170246-en...

[3] https://boards.greenhouse.io/cloudflare/jobs/3135805?gh_jid=...

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power dynamic between managers and those they manage is the differentiator. Sure it's a spectrum but half of that spectrum (from average to god awful) have power over your career/work, to your detrement.

I think this is the sign of inexperience/immaturity. What you're describing is a universal aspect of life. From parents, to teachers, to managers all the way back to chieftains of prehistoric tribes there have been power differentials between people and the more competent person has not always been the more powerful.

I think what you're describing isn't inexperience or immaturity; its idealism in the idea that competent people should hold power.

The world may not work like that, but it isn't immature to fight for it.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right. Running a business is nuanced and smart people are required for it. Imo, the real problem is that engineering work is disproportionately difficult compared to management and yet, management gets recognition, visibility and power to control engineer lives. This happens in every step. Engineering interviews are insanely harder than management, engineering promos are opaque and need grinding for years as…

As someone who has switched between management and IC work, I’ve found management to be much, much more difficult to do well. Management should be managing people, which is much harder than managing code. Perhaps this is why there are so many bad examples. The job is nearly impossible to do exceptionally well.

I think the critical point is: You've done both. I don't know you, but I will go out on a limb and say: having that history as an IC makes you a better EM; one of the good ones I hope.

Great EMs have that experience; and it makes their/your job way harder because now you understand, at a deep enough level, what the people you manage are going through. When product reqs come across the desk of an IC-turned-EM, they can feel that gut punch immediately: "fuck, this is going to be so hard, that system is so legacy, and Sarah is super overloaded right now because she's the only one with any experience on the message bus transformer converter ingester"

Management track EMs actually do have it easier, because they get to think in the discrete world of tickets and human resources.

At a high enough level in any company: senior leadership needs to think about the world as perfectly discrete like that, because there's so much other bullshit going on that worrying about the specifics of the message bus transformer converter ingester would drive them off a cliff. But EMs aren't that. But many, many EMs think like that, and a big part is the incentive structure of their career path; their boss thinks like that, and their boss's boss thinks like that, so if I want to have my boss's boss role one day I need to think like that.

The strawman side of what I'm arguing is: "Well, you're just describing a bad EM". But the whole point is that that's quickly becoming the average in the industry, and that average is starting to define the role. Career-track management who get promotions, then write the hiring reqs for their replacements, and every other EM below them, combined with a massive shortage of engineering talent meaning companies need to define a different bar for their EM hiring reqs anyway.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#407
post #25

Most of the "engineering managers" I've had to work under have been utter bullshit. Didn't learn anything from them (technically or in regards to leadership) and were there merely to check a box, play babysitter and/or sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams. The few who did have impact (1) were skilled engineers in their own right and were able to translate that into more management, (2) und…

> sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams maybe the manager was busy in meetings all day in order to ensure you had zero impact on your work streams :) the role of an EM in a large organisation is in large part to be an "enterprise abstraction layer", ensuring the people in the team(s) can work in a way that is as close as possible to what they could do in a startup/solo project

I think you're right, but I think you're stopping short of recognizing that maybe this is a reason why so many ICs have issues with the EM role. If the role of an EM is to be a Shield Against Complexity for the team, then two things are induced to happen more frequently:

1) The EM looks up far more often than down.

2) The ICs miss out on collaboration which could be critically valuable to their projects, careers, and broader understanding of the business.

But that's the average! Some EMs pat themselves on the back and say "look at all these meetings y'all didn't have to attend, so you could focus and get the good work done all day" when in reality they didn't do anything remotely near the title of their role: Engineering Management. Managing the Engineers; not managing project dependencies, not managing leadership, not managing politics, but leading the people who report to them.

Great engineers swim in that complexity; and great EMs expose their team to (the relevant parts of) it.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or the values provided by ORMs I'll point out that the world is pretty diverse and there are actually lots of people who think that ORMs were a mistake and lots of people who think that using them is always a no-brainer. There's an interesting phenomenon that it seems like a lot of folks manage to build up reasonably long careers while only running into one side of this divide or the other and not even realize that t…

> there are actually lots of people who think that ORMs were a mistake and lots of people who think that using them is always a no-brainer. This doesn’t mean that both groups are right though.

I would argue that neither group is right. Both are myopic and only see things from a limited perspective.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#409
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core problem sounds like the bullshit paperwork you allude to which is unnecessary and adds time to projects but provides leadership a fake status used to drive other decisions.

And yet it seems nearly every organization of meaningful scale has a large amount of this “cruft.” Why don’t we see companies that “simply don’t” add this cruft, and accordingly sail off into orbit under propulsion of their own excellence?

We do; you just aren't looking.

Its REALLY important to note the macroeconomics of our current climate. Tech is so, so, so rich right now. There's so much money flowing around that we just brute force our way through every problem. Cruft doesn't matter. Too crufty? Hire someone else to do that cruft. Split that cruft off into another team, that's growth and now my title is Director. Woah, don't touch that cruft, that's my cruft and I'm a Director, I'll die on my paycheck to defend that cruft.

Conway's Law: organizations design systems that mirror their own communication structure.

A Correlate to Conway's Law: in capitalist systems, an organization's communication structure is a mirror of its macroeconomic climate. Rich economic climates breed excess.

I'd posit that if you normalized the Y axis on the graphs "amount of time employees at tech companies spend on paperwork" and "the US M2 money supply", they'd correlate pretty well over the past thirty years. If you take the position that's a coincidence, or that the correlation doesn't imply causation in this case... just wait to see what happens to all that previously critical paperwork, pushed by previously critical people in indispensable roles, when the latter graph flatlines or inverts.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#410
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the reason they needed a manager to advocate for them was that other managers were either adversarial or ambivalent, that's just adding back value that was previously removed. But "adversarial" management is just a reality in company that has $X to spend and 12 different ways to spend it. Business decisions often have to made with limited data. A engineers "super cool feature that should obviously be implement…

Just because it is the reality doesn't mean it can't be critiqued though, right? If the CEO doesn't have insight into this situation because their attention is divided - maybe the CEO should provide the people closer to the problem with the information they need to do their jobs, and trust that they've hired good people who will digest this information, prioritize appropriately, and get the job done? If they can't tr…

Sure, the CEO delegates decisions to his COO. Ok, now the COO has to decide which 5 projects to find out of the 12 the company wants to do.

Business decisions are rarely black and white which is why if you can’t articulate why you should get resources, you won’t - someone who can articulate their value better will get resources. And if they can convince someone else their idea is best, now you’ve got two people advocating (i.e. politics).

The larger orgs get the more politics because there is simply to much going on for any one person to have all the information needed to make a decision - they can only rely on others to argue for their own priorities.

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