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Is engineering management bullshit?

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#51

Post by halfmatthalfcat »

rco8786 wrote: post #42
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

The power dynamic between managers and those they manage is the differentiator. Sure it's a spectrum but half of that spectrum (from average to god awful) have power over your career/work, to your detrement.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#53

Post by edmundsauto »

nine_zeros wrote: post #33
bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

You are right. Running a business is nuanced and smart people are required for it. Imo, the real problem is that engineering work is disproportionately difficult compared to management and yet, management gets recognition, visibility and power to control engineer lives. This happens in every step. Engineering interviews are insanely harder than management, engineering promos are opaque and need grinding for years as…

As someone who has switched between management and IC work, I’ve found management to be much, much more difficult to do well. Management should be managing people, which is much harder than managing code.

Perhaps this is why there are so many bad examples. The job is nearly impossible to do exceptionally well.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#54

Post by randomdata »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

In fairness, the Agile Manifesto is about pushing developers to work directly with the business people and each other in order to cut out the 'middlemen' you speak of. Each of the twelve principles highlight areas where developers need to pick up the slack when product/program/project management is cut out of the picture.

For better or worse, this is what we, as an industry, have adopted and a generation has grown up not knowing any better.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#55

Post by Ensorceled »

namdnay wrote: post #31
vishnugupta wrote: post #21

In a well oiled org managers aren't needed. I know it because I've been part of one. It needs specialised skilled workers i.e., product owner, product designer, project manager, and engineers. There'll be a tech lead among engineers who will be point person for the project manager. That's it. At the top you need execs or business heads liaising with product owners and/or project managers. Managers however become esse…

all that means is that you're making either the tech lead or your project manager the engineering manager. whoever is between business and the engineers, saying yes/no to the former based on the needs of the latter, is the EM

These things always devolve into the Product Owner or the Project Manager are actually the Engineering Manager without the pay and/or authority.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#56

Post by namdnay »

candiddevmike wrote: post #40
namdnay wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams maybe the manager was busy in meetings all day in order to ensure you had zero impact on your work streams :) the role of an EM in a large organisation is in large part to be an "enterprise abstraction layer", ensuring the people in the team(s) can work in a way that is as close as possible to what they could do in a startup/solo project

That abstraction layer doesn't add value IMO, it modifies the message like a game of telephone.

it's more like protecting the team from being shut because some asshole somewhere managed to convince an exec that there was overlap with their team, or raising warnings when some product idiot has a new idea that's obviously going to end up having a last-minute dependency on the team, hustling to get licences to use Circle instead of Jenkins or whatever, etc

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#57

Post by felizuno »

nonethewiser wrote: post #41
gautamdivgi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that true for everything though? More bad devs exist than good one? I guess a manager could make the same claim that devs are making his life miserable.

But a manager is something you progress into. How did bad people progress into it?

This is actually pretty consistent across companies: being the most senior person around when the last manager leaves. Sometimes it's a senior dev, sometimes a PM, heck I've seen it be somebody from the UX org. The path of least resistance is a quick promotion from within. As many of us have experienced this leaves us with a non-zero amount of managers who are both unqualified and uninterested in their role, but accept it for status (you're supposed to get promotions after X years right?) and pay reasons.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#58

Post by radicalbyte »

rco8786 wrote: post #42
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

> Most are about average.

That is not how averages work. It depends on the distribution.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#60

Post by liuliu »

rco8786 wrote: post #42
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

> Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves.

I do understand what OP said somewhat though. Mostly due to Peter's principle, thus, managers are not "about average" but "mostly incompetent". It is easier to promote people managers than ICs in growing organization, hence it is easier to play out Peter's principle in real life for people managers.

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