Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is engineering management bullshit?

makeartwithpython.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 425 posts

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#161

Post by tayo42 »

aniforprez wrote: post #143
linuxftw wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'average' manager may indeed be a net-negative, much like the average car crash. > frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for We know what the job is for, but maybe there's no actual value there. Do doctors have managers? Do lawyers have managers? No, they might report to some administrative body, but they mostly work on contract or in teams. The 'communicate with customers' nonsense is delegated to low…

> Do doctors have managers? Yes. If a doctor is working in a hospital, there are most certainly managers. Obviously not "technical" managers in that they're doctors themselves or the doctor's "boss" but in that there are managers who are co-ordinating workforce, priorities, staffing, supplies etc etc. This is very much a thing and is more broad than engineering managers but is an incredibly important task so the dail…

Are managers of doctors saying ridiculous things like you need to only seem patients 30 and up this week, or your not diagnosing enough strep throat.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#162

Post by pkulak »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

That was very well said, but with a few word changes could be used to support anything.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#163

Post by 015a »

sulam wrote: post #105
__alexs wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a manager and a manager of managers and I think we really do not have good data on whether not "management" as a profession in software engineering really adds value. We're bad at quantifying the value of engineers, and we're worse at quantifying the value of managers. There are definitely a wide range of non-engineering skills required to produce good software but that doesn't automatically justify the e…

I can justify it quite easily. Take it away and see what happens.

I don't think its possible to just take it away and see what happens, because organizations build the concept of EMs into their entire culture.

As an example: I worked in a Big Tech org where the only way to get anything from another team was an org hierarchy jump. ICs could reach out directly; ignored. Some teams didn't even have a way to reach out to them. You had to go EM, then maybe a Director, then it filters down, and maybe a day, maybe a week later, you'd get an email introduction. It doesn't have to be like this, no one even decided it should be like this, but because they had the hierarchy that's how the culture evolved.

The better comparison is to look at companies who don't have that role, or define that role significantly differently from the traditional Big Tech definition. There are many; of course, not as many as the latter. And just like companies who do have the role traditionally defined, there are success stories and there are failure stories. To me, the more I've read up on those stories, the more I've realized how pointless the role is.

Or, maybe more accurately; how much of the role's responsibility is really to be a crutch for bad culture, bad upper management, bad hiring practices, bad interviewing, etc. That ain't totally pointless, but if you're also flipping a coin on the quality of each EM you hire, and moreover the coin is rigged because we don't even have an industry standard definition for what defines success in the EM role in the best cases; there are better ways of reaching the same destination.

But, you know, most of the time those better ways require an ounce of Trust from senior leadership, and that's like pulling water from desert sand.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#164

Post by bratbag »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #51
rco8786 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

The power dynamic between managers and those they manage is the differentiator. Sure it's a spectrum but half of that spectrum (from average to god awful) have power over your career/work, to your detrement.

Thats assuming the average is net neutral to your career/work.

The average engineering manager may be a net benefit, or a net detriment. The rest we can extrapolate from there.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#165

Post by charles_f »

rco8786 wrote: post #42
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

> Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role.

I think it doesn't help that you'll find about 1 manager for 8-10 engineers. The same spectrum, but lower raw numbers, might give an exaggerated impression of mediocrity.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#166

Post by rco8786 »

tayo42 wrote: post #155
UncleMeat wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think that this is fair and it is a reason why bad managers stand out so much in people's minds. I think that making it feasible for a team to fire its own manager would be generally a good thing. But this has little to do with the argument that management as a concept itself is self serving bullshit.

Why? If most managers are useless that means most in the role aren't actually helping or doing anything yet the world seems to go on. Why have that role then? If you can have someone who is a negative in that role, then you can get rid of it.

> If most managers are useless

Big IF. Even worse-than-average managers are not useless. To have a truly useless manager is an extreme rarity.

> means most in the role aren't actually helping or doing anything

You're painting a broad spectrum of people on a binary scale. A bad manager is maybe 30% as useful as a great manager. But 30% useful is still better than not existing.

> If you can have someone who is a negative in that role, then you can get rid of it.

By this logic every job is useless. Any role can have someone bad at it.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#168

Post by aniforprez »

jevgeni wrote: post #148
royaltheartist wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the managers have found this comment. Once anyone notices when a manager takes vacation, then I'll consider it a vital part of any job

Why do you assume that anyone notices yours?

Even as an engineer, I hope FFS no one notices my vacations. It means everything is running smoothly and I actually get to have a little down time and not think about work

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#169

Post by ferrumfist »

sulam wrote: post #105
__alexs wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a manager and a manager of managers and I think we really do not have good data on whether not "management" as a profession in software engineering really adds value. We're bad at quantifying the value of engineers, and we're worse at quantifying the value of managers. There are definitely a wide range of non-engineering skills required to produce good software but that doesn't automatically justify the e…

I can justify it quite easily. Take it away and see what happens.

Devs: "Overworked? Too many disparate responsibilities? Not being able to write enough code? No team cohesion? This is a systemic failure of leadership, start interviewing for other positions."

Devs: "We, as software developers, are underappreciated! People only pay attention to us when things go wrong!"

Also Devs: "Managers are so useless lmao"

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#170

Post by [deleted] »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN