Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 271 posts

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#151

Post by joshstrange »

devwastaken wrote: post #137
colejohnson66 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By claiming censorship, it's implied that they deserve a platform, and to not have that taken away from them. You can't censor someone without a platform.

IA isn't a "platform". Claiming censorship does not mean deserving of a platform. Reality is they already have a platform, and will continue to do so, now in even more anonymous methods. Preventing users from being held responsible. The best that could have been done is if CF continued to proxy it, and answered discovery and court orders, that way users could be unmasked and prosecuted. But now they got away free.

The idea that the police cared or were going to do shit is laughable. As is the idea that we should keep KF online for that purpose.

> But now they got away free.

That was always going to happen. Keeping them/old content online was never going to change that. Our "justice" system is horribly broken.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#152

Post by redeeman »

smoldesu wrote: post #42
krapp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You'd think that, but historically this has only encouraged niche businesses to crop up catering to that crowd. Look at Epik (or Vultr) for example, businesses that exist solely to counter this kind of threat. And Cloudflare had no problem hosting Kiwi Farms and Daily Stormer until they crossed a line. Cloudflare's history doesn't exactly paint it as bleeding-heart liberal who can't deal with 'icky feelings.' I'm su…

> I'm sure Epik and Vultr have their lines as well, it just happens that none of their customers have crossed it yet. Indeed they do, which makes me a happy customer. Knowing how inflammatory their other customers are, it brings me great comfort in knowing that their free speech is honored as much as mine. If either of them pulled a "Cloudflare moment" at the same scale, I'd probably start looking for other hosting p…

i had ZERO clue what kiwifarms was before all this.. now that I know how much they try to keep me from seeing it, I have made it a point to look at for the forseeable future.

I do not subscribe to bullying or doxxing or anything like that, but now kiwifarms will get a fair chance at showing me what they are about, they had zero chance before, as I did not know they exist.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#153

Post by firstSpeaker »

justin66 wrote: post #143
firstSpeaker wrote: post #100

I hope in 10 years we could compare the state of the internet with today and see what else has slowly became the norm. It feels like we are moving toward a tech tyranny bit by bit. Every day we wake up and things are change a very little bit and we assume this is how it has always been or it is supposed to be. Note that I do not defend any ill action that anyone on KF has done. What I am trying to point out is how th…

It's ignorant or dishonest on your part to equate the Internet Archive with "big tech."

Or it can be neither. My comment was for general state of things and more particular for Cloudflare. Apologies for lack of clarity in the comment.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#154

Post by firstSpeaker »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #148
firstSpeaker wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. When there is a due process and it is done with the accordance of law that we are all supposed to abide. Not by unilateral decision of a tech CEO/Staff.

Do you believe that being on the Internet Archive is a god-given right and that only a judge should be able to tell IA to delete the work that IA chooses to do on their own? If you're a shithead in a club, you get kicked out. If you're a shithead with your family, you get kicked out. If you're a shithead on the internet, you also get kicked out.

I do not believe any shithead should be given a pass. My comment was mostly about who decides who is a shithead. If tomorrow someone famous/outreaching enough on twitter/etc. decides that I am a shithead, should google close my account?

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#155

Post by joshstrange »

smoldesu wrote: post #62
mmastrac wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did it achieve nothing? Deplatforming has shown to be effective. The Nazi site that CF shut down is very difficult to access.

It doesn't stop Nazis from existing though (or even knowing about, visiting and supporting the site). If we do the same thing with KiwiFarms, we just make it harder to monitor and easier for serial-abusers to collaborate. The majority of KiwiFarms users simply aren't solely enabled by the website existing, either. I simply don't believe in deplatforming, and it disappoints me to see Cloudflare shrug and cave in.

> If we do the same thing with KiwiFarms, we just make it harder to monitor and easier for serial-abusers to collaborate.

Yes because the police were doing such a great job at monitoring and responding to threats from KF. Wake up, this is such a weak argument that has no basis in reality. We hear these same tired arguments over and over that are not backed up with facts (or, you know, arrests).

> The majority of KiwiFarms users simply aren't solely enabled by the website existing, either.

Yes they are.

> I simply don't believe in deplatforming, and it disappoints me to see Cloudflare shrug and cave in.

What part do you not "believe" in? Deplatforming absolutely works. These rats might scurry to another platform/provider but each time fewer and fewer jump through all the hoops. You are letting perfect be the enemy of good.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#156

Post by richbell »

dmix wrote: post #140
mazdayasna wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for spreading this some more. Funny enough, I got that link from reading an archived version of Keffals' thread on KF while trying to get a bead on the situation myself. At best, KF threads are a simple public record of a person's online presence, (that they themselves posted publicly initially) content which I believe should absolutely be online. At worst, the popularity of threads about trans/autistic people…

There’s no way there won’t be another site of the terminally online obsessively documenting the terminally online. There is clearly massive demand for content about people like Chris Chan and Keffals, and these people have a way of constantly generating new controversy and attention (this obviously doesn’t justify harassment or IRL threats). If the drug war taught us anything it’s that demand can’t be squashed by pla…

There are already dozens of sites like this today. Many are uncreatively named offshoots of Kiwi Farms.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#157

Post by 0cVlTeIATBs »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #120
0cVlTeIATBs wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence KF has tried to stay obscure?

Well there can't be evidence one way or the other now that they're off the wayback machine. Although it does enhance my point, which is that Kiwi Farms benefits from this.

Though off archive.org, KF is still available via some routes like tor.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#158

Post by degrees57 »

devwastaken wrote: post #116
parkingrift wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is you’re not solving anything with these antics. KF still exists and will continue to exist. It’s just book burning for the sake of feeling better with absolutely nothing to show for it. In this case not even the satisfaction of seeing a burned book. People desperately want the world to be different, and it isn’t. It isn’t, and it won’t change massively within your singular life. So you can grandstand an…

Not only still online, but now their previous actions have been covered up for them! One could argue IA is pro-kf, why else would an archive intentionally destroy evidence?

Obviously no-one can predict the future, but a reasonable assumption (I think) is that a future AI will be able to de-anonymize supposedly anonymous posters to Kiwi Farms. If someone is posting terrible opinion to Kiwi Farms, why should they be protected by archive.org from reaping what they sow?

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Archive.org now provided more shade.

What I don't know is if Kiwi Farms _requested_ to be removed from Archive.org. As a publicity stunt, I could see a request for removal and then a wailing that they've been removed.

There was a minor kerfuffle with Snopes and a fact check of theirs which embarrased them. They later revised their fact check to no longer be embarassing. Problem was, archive.org still maintained the original. You can no longer find the original article from 2018 on archive.org. I'm sure that the only people who wanted the embarassing fact check removed were Snopes themselves. Archive.org was apparently happy to help them revise their history, by limiting how far back you can see anything in their library from Snopes.com.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#159

Post by pclmulqdq »

antiterra wrote: post #130
pclmulqdq wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole campaign has been damning for the folks trying to take down kiwifarms. All of the evidence of their bad past behavior that used to be confined to one obscure site is now plastered all over the internet, and millions of people know about it. My personal semi-conspiracy theory on this is that the search warrant served on Keffals (no, not a SWAT call, a search warrant) contained some note that they got probab…

This doesn’t really hold up to logic, at least as written. If the note references probable cause from a thread and the evidence is on kf, wouldn’t the authorities already have that evidence or be able to get a search warrant for it? Why would they search someone’s house for it?

Probable cause is not enough evidence to convict someone, but enough to conduct a further search to see if there is enough evidence for a conviction. See here (although this is US-focused, many other states have similar ideas): https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-rights/probable-ca...

Basically, they had the allegations and enough substantiating evidence to go to the point of looking for more evidence, but not to get all the way to an arrest/conviction. A search warrant is the next step.

EDIT: Also, the police have most likely downloaded the information, but you never know.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#160

Post by dmitrygr »

How is a reasonable person just coming across this brouhaha to determine what really happened? Apparently we are here to celebrate the primary source being deleted from what is effectively a museum. There is a reason that bookstores will still sell you a copy of Mein Kampf. I have no idea what a “keffal” or a “kiwi farm” is, and apparently now I cannot avail myself of a first-hand source. Screenshots can be doctored. I certainly won’t believe any of you about what happened. The internet archive always acted as a trusted proof of what really was present on a given site and when. Now, we celebrate destroying history and proof of alleged (and now unprovable) misdeeds. A dark day indeed.
Post reply on HN