In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam • Hacker News Board

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#61

Post by wyck » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 5:18 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #5

No offense to the "reddit meshnet project", but the last I checked (this could have changed) what they're proposing isn't possible with the team that they have right now. There are a couple of problems: 1) They don't have a solid hardware platform to work on, and the feeling I've gotten from talking to some of the people on /r/darknetplan is that they really don't have the proper understanding of wireless tech to mak…

Well it is just the start, one of the whole points of the sub-reddit is to create awareness for some more tech minded people to get involved.

On a side note, it is very possible for city wide 100km + coverage by a grassroots movement.

The AWMN ( Athens Greece) can support well over 10k users with 1120 nodes and 110km (approx) of coverage.

http://www.awmn.net/

ps. On side note during a google search for the above, it looks like the military is already rolling this stuff out on the battlefield, http://online.barrons.com/article/PR-CO-20111110-908833.html...

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#62

Post by charlieok » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 6:03 PM UTC

I think what you want here is a device you can just plug in, and if it finds any neighbors it's in business. Home WiFi plus whatever kind of additional radio is best suited to join a "city mesh".

So yeah, random people on reddit probably aren't going to come up with this anywhere close to as fast as a small team with just the right skills.

Making and selling a great piece of idiot-proof hardware that does this sounds like a decent startup idea. And now that I've thought about it this much, I'm guessing there must already be some startups selling such a thing (anyone have firsthand knowledge?).

What reddit brings to the table is a large number of interested participants. If a couple of those people live within range of me, the idea suddenly becomes one I might consider buying and plugging in now, today.

So for that reason, I like this reddit group.

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#63

Post by agentultra » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 6:33 PM UTC

wladimir wrote: post #58

agentultra wrote: post #56

Not only is the idea itself not unique; other hackers have been working on this for at least a decade with little practical success. It's hard enough covering a city with wifi let alone connecting a mesh network over the air. Rushkoff and others think it's just a matter of time... I remain skeptical. How many of the groups members have worked in telecommunications and understand how antennae work, how signal broadcas…

You can't build the kind of robustness that we enjoy today out of commodity hardware. And that's not needed either. The purpose is communicating with each other in cases that the government brought down or is heavily filtering the internet (like happens in Egypt, Libia, etc), or in case of a disaster. It doesn't have to be as fast, or robust as the internet. 56k is plenty enough if you just want to send messages or s…

Amen.

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#64

Post by charlieok » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 6:36 PM UTC

wolfeater wrote: post #11

blhack wrote: post #5

No offense to the "reddit meshnet project", but the last I checked (this could have changed) what they're proposing isn't possible with the team that they have right now. There are a couple of problems: 1) They don't have a solid hardware platform to work on, and the feeling I've gotten from talking to some of the people on /r/darknetplan is that they really don't have the proper understanding of wireless tech to mak…

The problem we are definitely running into is that as a crowdsourced project, we have a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about. However, we have a small subset that do (myself not included, I'm more aiming to get the ball rolling than anything) and have been hard at work on the project. There is a lot more noise than signal right now, but that will change as a more solid technological platform for lo…

I applaud the picking something that matters and swinging for the fences, instead of yet another "Foursquare for pets" like a lot of entrepreneurs seem to be doing these days...

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#65

Post by charlieok » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 6:47 PM UTC

Wohlf wrote: post #24

femto wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about an native implementation of Freenet? Currently Freenet is an overlay network, on top of the Internet, but from my limited knowledge of Freenet, it doesn't have to be that way.

Freenet, i2p and Tor are good examples of what we are trying to do, but they are not quite what we want. Our end goal intent is a completely separate network with it own infrastructure.

Why "completely separate"?

The internet is a patchwork of networks. Why not just add more networks to that patchwork.

Adding more networks to the internet, with more links between them, managed by a greater diversity of organizations and individuals, is what will make the internet harder for anybody to control.

It's been said that "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it". What's needed, I think, is more available routes.

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#66

Post by tehgrunt » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 6:48 PM UTC

VigUi7vv8G2 wrote: post #41

Wow, I was just in the IRC channel and people there are saying they don't want exit nodes because of "liability". Completely ridiculous.

Actually, I was the one trying to bring that issue up. One can see the problem with exit nodes if you just look at Tor. Exit nodes on Tor are frequently served with DMCA notices and sometimes equipment seizures (in non-US countries). See https://www.torproject.org/eff/tor-legal-faq.html.en for more information

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#67

Post by wmf » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 7:16 PM UTC

_exec wrote: post #52

CamperBob wrote: post #27

There may be ways to overcome the limitations of mesh networking, as outlined by many people here, but you will need to think outside the mesh, so to speak. It is probably best to think of the mesh as the "last mile" component rather than the backbone. One idea: a $5 laser pointer can be modulated at well over 100 Mbit/s. Everyone in an urban area who can see one side of a building can bounce laser beams off of it. (…

I'm really interested in testing this idea, do you have any links / papers / online projects? All I can find on Google is audio-over-laser projects..

The keyword is "free space optical". http://ronja.twibright.com/

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#68

Post by 1010101111001 » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 7:17 PM UTC

slowpoke wrote: post #51

1010101111001 wrote: post #8

I think it comes down to what the goals are. If the goal is to connect peer to peer with a small group of people you know in person and can trust, I see great potential. People congregate in small groups. Facebook friends, Skype contacts, etc. The advantage here is that third parties like Facebook, Microsoft and a gazillion advertisers are not involved. If it's small like that, it's doable as an overlay without using…

>and where kids are allowed to do all the things they're not allowed to do legally on the www, I see big problems. How in the seven hells is this a problem of the network protocol? Or any other technology, really? I seriously don't want to take this offtopic, but what you are describing is a problem of the parents/guardians first and foremost, and has absolutely nada to do with the technology we are discussing. Appea…

Not protocols, but usage. Not emotion, but common sense.

If Skype, a peer to peer network that uses a proprietary protocol and third party servers (neither of which is a prerequisite for a peer to peer network), was used primarily for file sharing over encrypted links, they would have some "big problems", as in "heavily funded lobbyists and plaintiffs", to deal with. These are the same "big problems" that are the driving force behind SOPA and consequently the same ones that have injected some steam into this reddit "think tank". SOPA has some interesting language where it refers to "or any successor protocol". Perhaps the next revision, or the next bill of this nature, will include language that refers to "any internetwork", present or future.

How a peer to peer network is used and who uses it does make a difference in terms of its acceptance and survival, even if in theory it shouldn't.

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#69

Post by charlieok » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 7:22 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #57

These meshnet projects are interesting, and I wish them well. But... we (democratic republic countries) already have governmental structures that allow for changing laws. Let's just organize and change the laws. Aside from the industry-paid demagogues' rhetoric of 'STEALING' on the internet, we have to objectively think about this problem. We, the public, define the laws. We define what 'stealing' is. If a majority o…

Changing the law is certainly a worthy goal, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from working on that.

Same goes for improving the technology. Making the internet more resistant to censorship, throttling and monitoring by design, is a very worthy goal.

Re: In Response to SOPA, Reddit Meshnet Project picks up steam

#70

Post by charlieok » Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #56

Not only is the idea itself not unique; other hackers have been working on this for at least a decade with little practical success. It's hard enough covering a city with wifi let alone connecting a mesh network over the air. Rushkoff and others think it's just a matter of time... I remain skeptical. How many of the groups members have worked in telecommunications and understand how antennae work, how signal broadcas…

In my condo, I can see between 15 and 20 other wifi routers belonging to my neighbors. Every single one of them is password protected. I doubt any of them are talking to one another.

Surely there is room for improvement here?